The new KM episode is up!

Discussion about Knightmare in youtube's Geek Week.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by stockholmsyndrome » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:08 pm

Grandizzy, I would respectfully challenge two points you made, a} the cast looked completely unsinister to me, if I met them down an alley late at night I wouldn't be too worried. b) and adventure and escapism should be for kids of any background. I think your point is prebably unsinister meaning just that middle class kids somehow are less assertive/confident, making the threat of the dungeon seem more real in comparison. Anyway a can of worms to be left alone but I wanted to challenge. Peace

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by GrandDizzy » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:38 pm

To clarify, my "middle class" comment was mostly humorous. (Did no one notice the laughing smiley I put after it?) I might also have said contestants must be from Yorkshire (since there seemed to be so many Yorkshire teams in the early days).

I suppose what I was getting at with "middle class" was that the children on the show were usually quite well-read and well-educated and suitable for answering questions on popular mythology and literary fiction. In contrast, most young people today are far more familiar with pop culture than classic fiction and mythology, aside from what is popularised on screen. So, class aside, I think you need children who are fairly well educated.

Also, there litteracy skill's r like literally, alot more worser than what they where before I groan up. So they's might struggle too spellcast complicated woard's like "web" and "sun" :D

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by stockholmsyndrome » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:03 pm

ok thanks, well I agree on the Yorkshire bit, a great accent :green:

I think overall including myself any fans of anything, can get a bit precious about how they think things should be. Taken to extremes you get Misery by Stephen King, where an obsessed fan kidnaps their favourite author and forces them write more novels about their favourite character, but only in a way that sits in with their idealised vision. Maybe Tim Child feels the same way >:-]

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by GrandDizzy » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:47 pm

Mystara wrote:The local chroma key expert was telling me that the dungeons actually have to look a bit fake or cartoonish. Apparently making them highly realistic produces a weird effect. I found it interesting that they actually have to worsen the digital environment. Perhaps that is the source of the digital noise you mention.
I would totally agree that the aim is definitely not for photo-realistic backdrops. That's because there will always be discrepancies between the live action and backgrounds (lighting, tone, contrast, sharpness etc.) and so the closer the background gets to photo-realism the more obvious these discrepancies become to the eye. So a slightly cartoony or stylised look is preferable. Also for the additional reason that we want to see the dungeoneer standing in a make-believe world. We don't want gritty reality, we want fantasy.

So my criticism of the graphics certainly wasn't that they lacked realism. I have a bunch of subtle criticisms but mostly that all the surfaces had a very strong and busy "noise" texture. I found it quite overwhelming and the dungeoneer is kind of "lost" amongst all the detail. Now I find it hard to imagine David Rowe having created these graphics (with the exception of Lord Fear's room, which was beautiful) because David's illustration always had surfaces that were soft, clean and elegant, really quite delicately painted and quite the opposite of this. (I suppose there is the possibility that David always used strong textures in his work which wasn't visible in SD but now is visible in HD?)

It's similar to when you paint backdrops for a stage production such as a pantomime: you generally don't use strong colours or large amounts of high contrast, you make everything softer and plainer, so that the performers really stand out against them. Same when I design backgrounds for catalogue pages. Colours have to be soft and not too distracting so that the products stand out :)

Well, this is all just my humble opinion. I am still really pleased with the episode, still happy that Knightmare came back. None of my criticisms represent a "thumbs down" from me. The whole thing is a triumph and I am really pleased. Knightmare is the best gameshow ever made. :)

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by wombstar » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:36 pm

GrandDizzy wrote: I suppose what I was getting at with "middle class" was that the children on the show were usually quite well-read and well-educated and suitable for answering questions on popular mythology and literary fiction
And kids from a working class background aren't ?
A lot of working class kids meet your requirements, and many middle class kids don't, class should be irrelevant I feel.


I don't think KM would had worked as well if it did look very realistic, part of the charm is that weird, illusions feel of the show,(I'm kinda anti CGI) Computer graphics look there worse when trying to look realistic I find
It's always the cracked ones that let the light in

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by stockholmsyndrome » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:22 am

Yep agree there Wombstar, one of the beauties of the show was it appealed and provided escapism to kids from all backgrounds. Intelligent + perceptive kids can be from any background.

I feel where there is less opportunity for Knightmare or a show like it now to suceed, is that immersive computer games like Warcraft/Runescape/Diablo/many others can now provide that escapism. There wasn't too much in the way of competition back then. The adventures of Zelda and Gaunlett perhaps, but still a world away from what games can create now ;)

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by HobGoblin » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:56 am

Class has nothing to do with it but I do like my KM teams to have a certain meekness and respect for authority. The show rewarded those who followed the rules of the game - the dungeon was never a place for rebels.

This was my problem with the geek week team; they were too familiar, too cocky, too jokey and at no point really gave the impression they gave a stuff about winning.

Still, they got killed off so I guess the system works ;D
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by Drassil » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:10 pm

Thanks for dropping by the forum again, GrandDizzy. It's good to see such and old member (old as in long-standing) among our current posters. If only you'd written 'stereotypically middle class', your comment might have generated a bit less controversy. But probably not. ;)
GrandDizzy wrote:The children on the show were usually quite well-read and well-educated and suitable for answering questions on popular mythology and literary fiction. In contrast, most young people today are far more familiar with pop culture than classic fiction and mythology, aside from what is popularised on screen
Though even in the '80s we had Knightmare contestants hearing "Theseus [and] Labyrinth" and thinking of David Bowie films rather than Greek mythology! I have mixed feelings about the Geek Week contestants, but ultimately there were benefits in the big fanbases that they pointed in Knightmare's direction, however fleetingly.
Alan wrote:If I remember rightly , David made an antechamber that had to be replaced at the last minute.
This may be the graphic that David has recently posted on Facebook.

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by TimeMaster » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:43 pm

[
Alan wrote:If I remember rightly , David made an antechamber that had to be replaced at the last minute.
This may be the graphic that David has recently posted on Facebook.[/quote]

That is beautiful. Very striking. What a shame that it wasn't used.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by pjmlfc05 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:22 pm

What a shame this wasn't used. Have to say, an amazing illustration and again shows David's fine work. I like the detail. Any reason why it had to be replaced at the last minute?
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by GrandDizzy » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:10 pm

Drassil wrote:Thanks for dropping by the forum again, GrandDizzy.
Thanks, Drassil. Great to be here. Obviously I'm not a regular, but occasionally I like to return , "entering" as a "stranger". :)
Drassil wrote: This may be the graphic that David has recently posted on Facebook.
Oh wow. Now you're talking! How sad that this vastly superior antechamber graphic wasn't used, I can only presume there weren't enough angles available for it to be used? I can think of no other logical reason. Shame.

It's lovely to see that David Rowe still has great affection for the programme and is proud of his work (which he should be), and that he was involved with the new episode to some degree. I really hope I haven't unwittingly criticised any of his work, since I have such respect for him. But I cannot deny that to my eyes those new rooms just seemed so starkly different in style to David's classic painted Knightmare backdrops.

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by Mystara » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:20 pm

If it wasn't used, it was probably for a technical reason. They didn't have the time to force things to work and instead had to make do, in order to get things done in time.
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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by Drassil » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:35 pm

It was used in a manner of speaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD0HtExsl4c :)

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by GrandDizzy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:46 pm

Drassil wrote:It was used in a manner of speaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD0HtExsl4c :)
I have to say I absolutely adore that video. What a lovely tribute! :)

In some respects I enjoyed this 4-minute video far more than the new episode. Loads of wonderful room illustrations + Hugo in full swing = the real essence of Knightmare IMHO. David walking around his own rooms was ace! And great to see Hugo floating over the illustrations, which was missing from the new episode. And it was also interesting. And funny too, love his Granitas joke! A really lovely video, and glad to see David reached his goal so he can put his e-book together! :) Yay! :)

Well I think I have figured out now what bothered me about the new episode graphics, and what the solution is. David's original illustrations in this video all look absolutely fantastic, no doubt about that. I notice the textures can be quite strong in places (eg Merlin's floor) but as standalone illustrations they are perfect and will look great in the e-book. Vivid and engaging, as they should be. However, for use on the TV show, you also need the eye of a digital effects supervisor like Robert Harris (I remember seeing him on the Kellyvision special). It's only really when a digital guy starts looking at how the chroma-key effects appear on screen that he is able to make the subtle and necessary adjustments, softening details where necessary to make it all more "background-ish", softening strong floor detail and thus allowing the performers to stand out. These are nuances that need to be done digitally as they would be almost impossible for any illustrator to anticipate in advance. Therefore, for the new episode, I think this very subtle and almost imperceptible sensibility was missing: we need not only outstanding illustrations, but for people to make adjustments with regards to being well-balanced with the live-action. David Rowe is a "legend" (to use that word colloquially). But blokes like Robert Harris also played an essential role in bringing the illustrations to the TV screen. (All my humble opinion!)

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Re: The new KM episode is up!

Post by Mogdred » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:33 pm

Main disappointment would be the fact that it was a one-off, so we all knew there was never going to be a 'BONG!' Time out...for now! type of an ending. I also thought it was odd having another character called Sylvester in it. Don't we already have Hands? Chester or Lester might have been better.

As fir the team, I like Ashens and watch his stuff a lot, but I had no clue who the others were.

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