Series 2 - Episode 10

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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Canadanne » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:53 pm

pjmlfc05 wrote:I think this was only applied once then which makes it a bit strange! Anyhow thanks for the clarification! I thought regardless of all situations, weapons are not to be taken.
What was only applied once?

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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by pjmlfc05 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:01 pm

Canadanne wrote: What was only applied once?
That an dungeoneer was advised to take a weapon. I can't think off the top of my head anyone else who was told or advised to take a weapon.
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Canadanne » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:34 pm

pjmlfc05 wrote:I can't think off the top of my head anyone else who was told or advised to take a weapon.
Helen in Series 4 took a dagger to make her invisible to a Behemoth. Nicola was also supposed to find a dagger for Hordriss, though she didn't survive long enough. Dickon unusually needed a bottle of poison, so it was the only clue object available to him.

Sarah in Series 5 was supposed to take an arrow for Gwendoline (there was a clue about it being more a token than a weapon). Alex benefited from taking this too.

Richard and Dunstan in Series 8 were both advised to take a knife (for Stiletta), and Richard died because they ignored the clue.

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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by pjmlfc05 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:45 pm

I should have stated to be used against enemies. Yeah forgot bout Helen from S4 so fair play. All the other instances was the weapons not being used against opposition but for the powers that be for their use.
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:16 am

Worth noting the two daggers that were use had magical properties, never use to 'kill' or cut flesh. One made a team invisible, while the other banished a ghost.
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:03 am

Canadanne wrote:All the teams in Series 1 were warned about taking weapons, and every version of the Adventurer's Code that we've seen includes that rule, so I'd be pretty surprised if it was absent from Series 2.
The thing about warning the teams in series 1 is that, as I say, it's quite probably that the series 2 teams won't even have seen it.

The adventurer's code is what I find interesting, though.

Is it something that was there, in its original form, and given to teams, even in series 1 or 2?
My suspicion is not. For example, I believe the bit about not being able to take clue objects between levels was designed to work with their split-level-story system, which was only introduced later. Certainly, it was amended in series 8 to include mention of the shortcut.
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by HobGoblin » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:56 am

I would find it weird if the code was in the 1988 book but not in the series. Or does this mean Dave Morris wrote the code and subsequently had a large impact on the future gameplay of knightmare? This seems more unlikely...

But I find it v hard to believe that many of the teams had never seen the show before! Surely they applied because they were fans? I can understand a team member or two not being overly familiar with the show but not all four of them...
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:14 am

I would find it weird if the code was in the 1988 book but not in the series. Or does this mean Dave Morris wrote the code and subsequently had a large impact on the future gameplay of knightmare? This seems more unlikely...
The difference is that a book has no DM (as in, a rules arbiter), nor any sense or need to make a thrilling story (show). A book also can't easily maintain state. It's very difficult for a book to "give you one chance" in the same way that Knightmare can. Consequently, a book needs a concrete set of rules that the player must follow. The show can be a little more flexible.

So I can imagine it's possible that the book had them first.
However, wasn't Tim actually a (silent) co-writer of the books?
But I find it v hard to believe that many of the teams had never seen the show before! Surely they applied because they were fans? I can understand a team member or two not being overly familiar with the show but not all four of them...
I'm sure some had. I understand many hadn't.
Apparently the tougher interview process was also brought in, partly to try and filter such people out :)
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by HobGoblin » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:47 am

I'm sure I've seen Tim Child saying somewhere that if teams forgot about good being on the right then they'd be thrown into a bomb room to sharpen them up. This suggests an off screen code in the early series.

Also, wasn't the code explicitly mentioned in S1?

I believe Tim did co write the 1988 book. It seems more likely to me that Dave Morris had to incorporate Tim's show rules into the game section rather than the book rules being adopted for the TV show in later years. If they were designed for the book out of necessity and the show didnt need them why would this have happened?
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Canadanne » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:28 pm

Mystara wrote:The thing about warning the teams in series 1 is that, as I say, it's quite probably that the series 2 teams won't even have seen it.

The adventurer's code is what I find interesting, though.

Is it something that was there, in its original form, and given to teams, even in series 1 or 2?
We've had this conversation earlier in the thread - it was stated in Series 1 that teams had read the Adventurer's Code before starting their quests. I see absolutely nothing to suggest that it didn't include the weapons rule from the beginning; everything in the programme is consistent with that rule being in place. Is there any particular reason why you doubt it?

Dave Morris has said on Twitter that Tim Child wrote the gamebook section of the first book.

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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by pjmlfc05 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:15 pm

I guess only teams from the 1st 2 series knows for sure whether the adventurers code included the weapons rule. And I mean weapons being used against enemies. I don't know what episode it was but when Treguard dismissed a team, he then mentioned if you carry the weapons of your enemies you are likely to fail (or something to that effect). This would then make it a bit contridicting if a team was advised to take a weapon as part of 2 items they could take.
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:49 pm

Canadanne wrote: it was stated in Series 1 that teams had read the Adventurer's Code before starting their quests.
My problem is that the same quote also refers to the "rules of ritual", which, as far as I'm aware, nobody has ever seen.

Isn't it possible, therefore, that the adventurer's code and the rules of ritual were only turned into a formalised, written set of rules after this point in time? That Treguard's reference to having read these is part of the narrative form of the show, in the same way that the first dungeoneer wants to "become a knight"?
Canadanne wrote: I see absolutely nothing to suggest that it didn't include the weapons rule from the beginning; everything in the programme is consistent with that rule being in place.
Well, my above point notwithstanding, the weapons rule seems to have changed over time from:

"use the magic or the weapons of your enemies with care"
to
"Beware the weapons of your enemies. Unless otherwise indicated, it may be best to assume that all weapons discovered fall into this category"

These rules are actually very different. The former rule does not appear to prohibit the picking up, or even the use of weapons unless those weapons are of your enemy. Even then, you're allowed to use them, albeit cautiously.
Candanne wrote: Is there any particular reason why you doubt it?
To be clear, I have no real opinion.

However, I'm always nervous about the ex post facto analysis of the actions of the production team such as the application of the game rules. In practice, we're in possession of so few facts about what was a varying, complex and highly subjective process.

I'm therefore just playing devil's advocate and making sure people have considered every angle :)
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Canadanne » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:39 pm

Mystara wrote:My problem is that the same quote also refers to the "rules of ritual", which, as far as I'm aware, nobody has ever seen.
I took "the rules of ritual" to be the other instructions that accompanied the Adventurer's Code (the rituals for spellcasting, etc).
Mystara wrote:Well, my above point notwithstanding, the weapons rule seems to have changed over time from:

"use the magic or the weapons of your enemies with care"
to
"Beware the weapons of your enemies. Unless otherwise indicated, it may be best to assume that all weapons discovered fall into this category"

These rules are actually very different. The former rule does not appear to prohibit the picking up, or even the use of weapons unless those weapons are of your enemy. Even then, you're allowed to use them, albeit cautiously.
"Use weapons with care" seems to me just a shorter way of saying "Use them only if you've been told it's OK" (Treguard is reminding them of the rules but not reciting them in full because they're supposed to have read them already), but if you interpret it differently, there's nothing more I can say. Perhaps Tim can clarify next time he's on here.

I agree it would be interesting to obtain copies of the Adventurer's Code from different series, to see which items were added/changed over time and which remained the same.

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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:22 pm

the Adventurer's Code was certainly mentioned in series 1, and I think the weapon rule has always been in place.

And I'm sure teams had seen the show before, a recent team described as room as being 'the clue room' so they must have been episode before hand. The teams on series two I'm sure would have watched series 1.. hence they applied to be on the show.
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Re: Series 2 - Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:29 pm

And I'm sure teams had seen the show before, a recent team described as room as being 'the clue room' so they must have been episode before hand. The teams on series two I'm sure would have watched series 1.. hence they applied to be on the show.
As I said:
Mystara wrote: I'm sure some had. I understand many hadn't.
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