Treguard

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Elessar
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Treguard

Post by Elessar » Thu Dec 19, 2002 12:03 am

I've just seen The Two Towers. I admit, I hadn't read the books :( although I have been meaning to.

I had no idea that treguard's name may not have been as original as it sounds!

TRE GU   ARD
TRE EBE  ARD

Hmmmmmm.

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Re: Treguard

Post by Treguard » Thu Dec 19, 2002 12:38 am

Yes. A lot of people in different chat rooms /different channels  mention that one :)  

And in Wcnews there's a guy on there with the s/n  "TreeBeard" So apparently i'm his guard :S
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Re: Treguard

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold » Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:36 pm

To be honest, I don't think it sounds that similar. I'd always thought the root was "Guard", as in warden.
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Re: Treguard

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold » Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:37 pm

I admit, I hadn't read the books :(
Shame on you.  ;) Although well done on getting to see the film so early. :)
"Sometimes of the Grey, but always of the Green, dearie. Shurrup Brollachan! Have you seen Festus, my dear? I need to take him back to Cornwall. " [cackle]

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Re: Treguard

Post by JamesA » Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:29 pm

I best not comment....  ;D
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Knightmare vs Tolkein

Post by Wolfshead » Wed May 12, 2004 4:57 pm

Check this out!

Treguard: Aragorn
Merlin: Gandalf
Mogdred: Morgoth
Hordris: Saruman
Lord Fear: Sauron
Grenaldine: Radagast
Ariadne: Shelob or Ungolliant
Sylvester hands: Golem (Smeagol)
Pickle: Legolas
Aowen: Velda
Bomptous: Gimli
Arwen: Gundrada
Olaf: Boronir in the animated version
Cavern Wights: Barrowites
Glaurung: Red dragon
Smaug: Owen

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Re:Knightmare vs Tolkein

Post by Wolfshead » Thu May 13, 2004 12:38 pm

Remember Golgarach asking a Dungeonere about Hobbitts and Orcs!

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Through dungeons deep and caverns dark

Post by JoeGrocottJames » Sun May 23, 2004 9:06 pm

I have read The Hobbit and have discovered in a dwarf song near the start that there is mention of 'dungeons deep and caverns dim' (or caverns old). In series 8, Treguard opens with 'Through dungeons deep and caverns dark'. Is this coincidence, or did somebody take this from The Hobbit?
Last edited by Anonymous on Sun May 23, 2004 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re:Through dungeons deep and caverns dark

Post by Visage » Sun May 23, 2004 9:11 pm

Wouldn't be AT ALL surprised if the script-writers had used bits from Tolkein, being the icon of fantasy that it is, whether consciously or not...

However, it's a fairly standard statement for the dungeon, and bear in mind that they had to find a line that rhymed (almost!) and scanned with 'Four from somewhere take the path'...
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Re:Through dungeons deep and caverns dark

Post by HStorm » Sun May 23, 2004 9:20 pm

One of the wall monsters used the phrase, "In dungeons deep and darkness cold..." as the start of a riddle in season 1. I think that's where Treguard's phrasiology originated.
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Re:Through dungeons deep and caverns dark

Post by Visage » Sun May 23, 2004 9:49 pm

Sounds more like a set-phrase to me, one of those standard epic constructions like 'wine-dark sea'...

Hmmmm, could be?

Could a classicist confirm this?
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Re:Through dungeons deep and caverns dark

Post by Thanatos » Mon May 24, 2004 9:13 pm

Well, it almost certainly didn't spring from the same origins of Homer's oral poetry - dungeons do not feature in the Iliad or, as far as I know, in the Odyssey. So I'm afraid it's not in the same class as such repeated epithets as "wine-dark sea", "rosy-fingered Dawn" and "winged words".
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Re:Through dungeons deep and caverns dark

Post by Drassil » Mon May 24, 2004 11:08 pm

Yes. Although it looks formulaic in the way that as the phrases Thanatos has listed, because Latin and Greek/Homeric epic poetry was not based on rhyme and did not tend to use alliteration in quite that way, I agree that 'dungeons dark and caverns deep' is unlikely to have its origins in Classical literature.
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Re: Knightmare vs Tolkien

Post by Canadanne » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:58 pm

Has anyone made a complete list of Tolkien references in Knightmare, as The Eye Shield did with Camelot / Robin Hood / Greek mythology? These are the ones I remember noticing...

~ Golgarach's first two questions in episode 310:
"In another legend, who was the first hobbit to hold the ring?" (Bilbo Baggins*)
"In the same legend, what were goblins called?" (Orcs)
*(Indeed, the whole concept of "answer some riddles or be eaten" may have come from The Hobbit!)

~ Pickle in episode 511: "Hmm. Not exactly the Last Homely House, master. Can't believe there'll be much of a welcome here." A very nice reference to Elrond's home in the Elven settlement of Rivendell, where the adventurers rest for a while in both The Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings.

~ Pickle in episode 606: "Surely only Elves cross the great ocean, and when they do, it's never to return!" Refers to the Elves departing Middle-earth and sailing to the Undying Lands. Again, a nice line for Pickle!

~ Captain Nemanor's name is surely a corruption of "Númenor", the island realm of Men which was destroyed as punishment for attempting to conquer the Undying Lands. (Nemanor himself is being punished for something, though I don't think they specified what he'd done?)

~ Lord Fear in episode 608: "Someone has stolen my ring of power!" (I wonder if Lord Fear is somewhat based on Sauron in general. He seems to have quite a few rings of power. Sauron has a volcano called Mount Doom; LF has a volcano called Mount Fear. Sauron has the Dark Tower of Mordor; LF has the Black Tower of Goth. Sauron is called the Necromancer; LF is called the Technomancer. They both use goblins to defend their territory from small intruders. And then there's Pippin spying on Sauron through a palantír, which is very dangerous but ultimately helps their quest...)

~ Series 7 features a Level 2 location called the Rift of Angar, which is only one letter away from Angmar, a similarly mountainous region in Middle-earth where bad things dwell.

~ Grimaldine accepts the gift of an "Arkenstone" in episode 703 - the name of the precious stone that was highly valued by Thorin in The Hobbit. Grimaldine's "Arken shield" (used by Julie to defeat Lord Fear in episode 712) might be similarly inspired by Thorin's epithet, Oakenshield.

~ Was the green gem previously called an "Elfstone" at some point? In LOTR, one of Aragorn's names is "the Elfstone" because of the green gem he wears (a gift from Arwen).

~ Majida calling Treguard "Treebeard" at the start of Nicola's quest in episode 703! The name of an Ent who aids the Fellowship.

~ Smirkenorff in episode 705: "A strange but fell beast hunts for me." I suspect there's a subtle LOTR reference here, as Tolkien used the term "fell beast" to describe the Ringwraiths' winged mounts (so that's what the creatures are often called).

~ Treguard's rhyming recap in Series 8, "Through dungeons deep and caverns dark", is very similar to a dwarf song from The Hobbit (featuring the lyrics "To dungeons deep and caverns old" and "To dungeons deep and caverns dim"). Coincidence, I think not.

~ Maldame to Lord Fear in episode 802: "You have two towers." No further explanation required, really!

~ If we're counting Knightmare VR, the awful new version of Lissard sounds rather more like Gollum, with the whole "orcssesss" bit. I'm surprised he didn't start muttering about his "precious" and wondering what the dungeoneer has got in its pocketses... (Speaking of Gollum, I suppose his tendency to argue with himself might even have inspired Bhal-Shebah!)

These ones are a bit more tenuous:
~ Ariadne, possibly (dare I say "probably"?) inspired by Shelob. Both have a perilous lair that must be journeyed through, and are famous for having many descendants.
~ Oakley, possibly inspired by the Ents? (It's not a hugely original idea, though.)
~ Stiletta's cloak of invisibility? Again, not a very original idea, but the Elven cloaks gifted to the hobbits in LOTR have similar properties. (Sam gets a magic rope, too!)
~ The Pool of Veracity? Not entirely unlike the Mirror of Galadriel... but I'm stretching it now, I think!
~ Treguard to Majida in episode 808: "Some small people are often remarkably fierce and tenacious, you know." Probably not a Hobbit reference as he seems to be talking about Majida herself, but it did make me wonder.

So... did I miss anything?

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Re: Knightmare vs Tolkien

Post by Canadanne » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:11 pm

Oh, I remembered another one - the Army of the Dead in Series 1. Probably quite a well-used phrase, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was borrowed from LOTR (the ghost army summoned by Aragorn).

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