Series 8, Episode 10

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:45 pm

If the short cut had not been introduced that's exactly what they could have done I guess, I wonder why they didn't just do it, have you do a 'series finial' quest and still filmed another normal team quest afterwards if time allowed, that quest could then aired before yours instead even if it was filmed after.

It's very easy all theses years later to suggest this and that I know, it's very different at the time it's all happening. Still very fascinating though.

Another option maybe would have been to use Maldame to return home once lord fear was defeated and the quest object collected.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:02 pm

wombstar wrote:If the short cut had not been introduced that's exactly what they could have done I guess, I wonder why they didn't just do it, have you do a 'series finial' quest and still filmed another normal team quest afterwards if time allowed, that quest could then aired before yours instead even if it was filmed after.
Well....

Firstly, I assume they introduced the shortcut because they wanted to have the shortcut in there. The fact that they could have eliminated it and thereby not required the last time is irrelevant if they want the shortcut mechanism.

Secondly, your suggestion would have the slightly odd consequence of killing off a team when the series ends. It's all very well requiring a team's quest to end because of the end of series, but actively killing them off (in order to show our "end of series" quest) would be a little harsh. It would basically be implying that the team had made a mistake or done something wrong when they hadn't. That isn't really Tim's style.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:02 pm

Indeed forcing a kill is unfair, but giving a team a short cut when others didn't have the option also seems a bit unfair.

There's no perfect solution, it's just fun to imagine other possibilities.
Although it was pretty nice having an old style end of series without a winner and without some big story line so I kinda liked it.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:28 pm

Indeed forcing a kill is unfair, but giving a team a short cut when others didn't have the option also seems a bit unfair.
Firstly, there's a magnitude of difference between the two.
In the former, you're not giving the team a chance at all and merely forcing the event. It's automatic death, no matter how good or bad the team was. At this point, it stops being a game because there is no chance to win.

In the latter, it's still a game because there's still a chance to win or to die. I would argue (although others may disagree) that doing the CoB as opposed to doing L2 minus the CoB barely changes the odds (I think both have about a 60% death rate?). Therefore, the shortcut doesn't even dramatically change the odds. A good team still win whereas a bad team still die. Certainly, a bad team would still die in L3. Fundamentally, this is why I don't consider our victory to be unfair. It's hard to say that we would have failed L2 when we did so well in L3.

This was the situation as it was presented to us, but as it turns out, it was probably wrong - since there would have been time for us to do L2 after all.

Phrased differently, a bad team might not choose to go through the blades. But you'd certainly expect that team to die in L2.

Secondly, I'm not quite sure why you're connecting the shortcut to the end of series. It feels like a bit of a non-sequitar. As I said previously, the shortcut was there because they wanted the idea of a gamble. It wasn't (AFAIK) there to enable a series finale to take place. Therefore the whole question is moot. It might be that the timings are such that if they got rid of it (and the final team) then my team could have had a full L2. But that doesn't help if they actively wanted the shortcut concept to be in there.


Just as a side point, and something else that has occurred to me....
I'm not entirely sure that the argument "we would have had time to do L2" is necessarily true. Some rooms (the CoB) are very quick to set up and yield a few minutes of gameplay. Other rooms take much longer to set up for the amount of gameplay that you get. We completed our quest late on a Tuesday afternoon and gameplay had to finish by Wednesday afternoon. It is possible that the L2 rooms would have taken much longer to set up and film than the L3 rooms. One point in support of this hypothesis is that it appears that a different VR system was in use for L3 as opposed to L2.
It could therefore have been the situation that, had we done L2, we wouldn't have been able to film enough gameplay in time. This would have resulted in a weird L2/L3 as the production team tried to put in gameplay-generating encounters that were quick to set up.
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:47 pm

Worth noting many teams has both a level two and a Corridor of blades to contend with, so the odds of death were far greater. So some might say it was a bit unfair to other teams who had to play the full dungeon. I suspect this wouldn't even be an issue for people had the team not won.

Nobody is saying it was an easy win as there were far easier wins over the years, but the knightmare short cut will be a debate that will go on forever and divide opinions 8)
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:26 pm

wombstar wrote:Worth noting many teams has both a level two and a Corridor of blades to contend with, so the odds of death were far greater.
Not necessarily. Just because you have one puzzle of difficulty X and another puzzle (or group of puzzles) of difficulty Y does not mean that the total difficulty is X+Y. Indeed, I suspect the total difficulty is MAX(X, Y) + DELTA. In other words, it would be equal to the highest difficulty of the two puzzles (because if you can do one, you can do the other) plus a very small increase to represent the fact that it's always possible to make some fluke mistake.

Phrased differently (Tim's argument): If you can handle the blades, why would anyone think you would struggle with L2?
wombstar wrote: So some might say it was a bit unfair to other teams who had to play the full dungeon. I suspect this wouldn't even be an issue for people had the team not won.
Some might say that, but they'd be saying it without any real analysis (real analysis here is almost impossible). Those teams that faced L2 and the corridor of blades didn't face other things that we faced in L3, which could be argued to be even harder. For example, the final fireball room has a kill rate equal to the corridor of blades (he said, abusing statistical analysis to make his point).
wombstar wrote: Nobody is saying it was an easy win as there were far easier wins over the years, but the knightmare short cut will be a debate that will go on forever and divide opinions
Probably. But I think the quest only appears to be unfair because of how it is presented - an entire LEVEL being removed. This is, of course, completely meaningless because level sizes, difficulties, and durations aren't standardised.

Viewed objectively, the corridor of blades seems substantially more dangerous than the L2 experienced by, say, winning team 4 of series 2, who had Cedric to help them most of the way. I think L1 and L3 are comparable across both quests.

In terms of the length of the quest (35 minutes) it's also comparable to team 4, series 2 and the same(?) as team 10, series 2, who also won.

But, well, appearance tends to be everything :)
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by wombstar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:04 pm

I agree.
Many deaths were also down to mistakes and errors as you pointed out so someone may expertly survive the blades could accidently fall off a level 1 ledge, watching series 3 on challenge the first team were looking good before stepping on quick sand.

Certainly agree about 'appearance' The short cut gives the appearance a huge chunk of dangers have been removed, so the viewer gets the impression the team has been giving an easy ride because of it.

I always thought the Series two winners appeared to have had the easiest wins.

I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Canadanne » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:11 pm

wombstar wrote:I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
I can only think of Sophia in Series 6.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Drassil » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:31 pm

Canadanne wrote:
wombstar wrote:I wonder how many teams beat the blades but still lost the quest? I can't think of any off the top of my head
I can only think of Sophia in Series 6.
Also Simon in Series 4 (Team 4). Even if Gundrada physically guiding him through the Corridor of Blades makes it as passive as an eyeshield sequence.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Requiem » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:46 pm

Hey everyone

I appreciate it's been many, many years - not just since this episode but even since the last replies. How time flies and now we're into 2019.

Lately I've been enjoying some nostalgia - returning to much of the great stuff that happened in my younger years. Let's call it pre-middleage crisis. ;D

Anyway, I have read through this thread numerous times and it seems I might be able to fill in a bit of detail in the gaps Mystara hasn't been able to, as well as share my own take on events. At this stage I should probably introduce myself as Oliver, the final dungeoneer.

The issue of the shortcut is pervasive on here and Mystara has done a great job at explaining his understanding - I'd like to add a few points, too. In doing this, I will quote parts of others' posts and respond as I go. This might take us via the scenic route, so I apologise if this becomes an essay, but well. What else is there to do on New Year's Day!

STRIKE said: Dont understand the Dunstan cheat comments they only did what Knightmare crew set them to do, would have been better to see them do more challenges at the end, rather than chuck on a team that would only be on for about 5 minutes or so!

We had earned the right to contest. I honestly do not mean to blow any trumpets but we were told our audition was one of the best Tim had come across since they first beefed up the process back in Series 5. An unfortunate schedule clash (more on this below) meant that we filmed last and I'm not sure how fair it would've been on a team of excited 12/13 year-olds to have come all that way, only to be told, Sorry kids, no deal. Safe home. Remember - when a team was in play, the following team HAD to be called in on standby as there was no way of knowing whether the team in play, in this case Dunstan's, would last or lose, and when.

NAITCH said:I have no feelings of annoyance towards Dunstan or Oliver and their teams as some have over the last 11 years, though I do wonder what the point of having the final quest (Oliver) was if it only lasted 8 minutes and had no chance of being a winning quest.

Harbouring annoyance at either Dunstan's team or my own would be unfair. As others have already noted, the production crew laid out our options, just like they always do. It is the team's decision as to how to proceed. The real injustice was that Series 8 had only 10 episodes as opposed to the usual 15 or 16. Still, if anything was not so much unfair, but unfortunate, it's events in the background that played out re: the teams' scheduling (as above, more on this below).

OLDBOY said: The teams got off way too easy and very obviously too. I don't know why they skipped level two with the previous team when they could have ended the series with a winning team. The next team again should have been fire balled or died in the corridor of blades. It's a far cry from the earlier seasons that showed little mercy for annoying teams giving poor directions.

I am not sure either Dunstan's team or mine were guilty of giving poor directions. There was one moment where Matthew (one of my advisors) tried telling me to take the wrong thing, but I had no intention of listening to him. :D Otherwise, my advisors did a good job at navigating me, especially Anthony in the Corridor of Blades. I'm not sure why my team (or any) should have been killed off when we were doing alright.

Neither of the final two teams were forced to take the shortcut, but the option was there. As Mystara points out, the production team were never entirely sure how much game time was remaining (this is largely dependent on editing of the filmed episodes) and we were repeatedly told that we might only be running for fun (playing without having a chance of winning)...the shortcut was there because they wanted the idea of a gamble. It wasn't (AFAIK) there to enable a series finale to take place.

At this stage, regarding my team's short tenure - a little history might help understanding. When we passed the audition, we were advised the approximate weeks (across a couple of months, July and August I recall) that we may be called upon. We were also told we would hear back sooner than that as to what order we would film in. When we got that call, we were advised that our team was scheduled to film second (out of the seven in all). Unfortunately, Matthew (advisor in the middle on the show) was booked to be abroad on holiday at the time we got the call. Tim was cool about it, but said we'd have to go to the back of the queue as a result. We'd still feature, but we'd go last. There wasn't a lot to be done about it and in the end, that's what happened. By the time Dunstan's team completed, we were left with what amounted to about 18 minutes' screen time as I recall. Nobody's fault, but an unfortunate circumstance that meant my team never had an unrestricted crack at the whip, but that's life.

As a side note, the shows' durations vary between 22 and 25 minutes; in the end, my 18 minutes of screen time was cut to around 14 minutes.

Anyway, back to the shortcut. Tim advised us like he had Alan and the rest of Dunstan's team that we may not get to complete, but that there would be too much time spare to not start another quest. That is as much as they could tell before editing took place. Hence, the short cut was introduced, but discretionary. The sole reason I was keen to take it was because it guaranteed a crack at the Corridor of Blades - my favourite trap of all Knightmare's traps and if I had the chance to have a go at it, I wasn't going to turn it down.

POOKA said: I've previously said that I would have preferred a longer Dunstan quest as opposed to having Oliver's team start. I now think completely differently; Oliver's team are bright and original (I like the compass points directions, as long as you know where they're going). It's fairly clear that they were never going to win - they didn't have time; they probably could've - but, unlike earlier final-quest teams, they weren't given a task to do in lieu of a win...at least Oliver got through all of Level 1 and into Level 3; that takes some doing!

Thank you for your kind words (and to Kieron, as well). We always knew our compass point system would be different, but it worked for us when it came to practising. In between rooms, Tim and a lady (I forget who) repeatedly advised us of their approximations as to how run times etc. were shaping up, noting they were only able to guess. There was a belief that we had a chance - very small, but still a chance - at completing (an admittedly shorter than usual quest), if we took the shortcut. In that sense, we all got the impression that's what the production team wanted, as well. Perhaps, in hindsight, Pooka's idea of a shorter side quest would've been better but that obviously wasn't our call to make.

A couple more points before I wrap up (promise).

CANADANNE said: I'm guessing they did the whole spellcasting routine, but then the incident with Oliver running through the side wall happened (as seen in Slow Hand and mentioned in Paul Boland's report), and when they refilmed the Corridor of Blades, they forgot or couldn't be bothered to do the spellcasting again. Although it's equally possible that they forgot all about it in the first place.

We did indeed film the Spellcasting sequence; David (the advisor nearest Treguard) performed the honours (that was his allocated task on the team). I also believe a decision was made to excise it from the show to buy us a little more time. As I said, I think our total screen time was 18 minutes - we 'lost' 4 along the way, on the editor's floor ???

As for the running through the wall sequence - in spite of the fact the COB is one of the areas I recall best, I don't remember that happening clearly. What I do recall is that after we filmed the scene where the dowsing stick revealed the shortcut, as we were returning to the green room, one of the production crew (can't recall who) whispered to me that the COB was coming next. Now, as a team we'd practised this at home long before we got to Norwich. It was agreed of all advisors, Anthony had the clearest head and instructions, so he'd issue the guidance.

When it came to filming the sequence, I had obviously been told it was coming (not a massive spoiler, given the Spyglass reveal about the shortcut and the quicker blades), and as I'd been practising, I was pretty keen at leaping left and right. I got a bit carried away and knocked the portable wall that served as the right hand wall of the corridor so that it wobbled and shunted sideways (the left wall was the usual, more permanent left wall of the studio, so running through that wouldn't have been possible ;D ).

After that happened, filming was paused briefly and the floor manager (who was my favourite member of the entire crew, Ian Craig) came up to me laughing and with mock incredulity, 'accused' me of knowing in advance the COB was my next room. Fond memories of not having the deceit in me to lie and deny it.

Anyway, that's my experience of filming and some of the behind the scenes explanations for what happened in the end. I've always thought, on the one hand, it is a shame that my team didn't get the chance to have a proper go and either win or die - as we would have had Matthew not been on holiday - but on the other hand, though we didn't win, we didn't die and I do at least get the unique achievement of being able to say I was Knightmare's very final dungeoneer (I am not counting the rather excellent more recent one-off from a few years back).

If anyone has any questions they'd like to ask and think I might be able to help, go ahead, albeit I appreciate it's been some years since activity on this thread and many may have moved on. In any event, a very Happy New Year to one and all.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mystara » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:05 am

Thanks for filling in the gaps there. Your experience sounds very similar to my own - although I don't recall getting information about the edit time, I suspect it was more relevant to your team :)
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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Mashibinbin » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:09 pm

Thanks Oliver you cetainly have provided us with more! :D

That's a really informative post and I'm sure if you submitted it as an article on the site with maybe a few exclusive pictures from your archive that it would reach an even bigger audience.

On a similar note if you'd like me to do an interview of sorts with you (I email you a load of questions that you can answer as many as you like/not) please say so. That can also then be used as an article for the masses to savour.

I'm glad you enjoyed your experience and do keep your ears to the ground for future projects to get involved in such as the Midnight Hunt. For the time being Knightmare Chat is primarily open from 8pm on Sundays if you want to come along, you'd be highly welcome. :)

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Drassil » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:35 pm

Hi, Oliver. Welcome to the forum and sorry your post got caught in temporal disruption.

It was a great post for us to get on the 20th anniversary of this website. You've given us plenty to add to your 'Hear from the team' page! Thank you.

In case you haven't seen them, there are some official ITV clips from your quest on YouTube here in a playlist I put together.

Requiem wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:46 pm
If anyone has any questions they'd like to ask and think I might be able to help, go ahead, albeit I appreciate it's been some years since activity on this thread and many may have moved on. In any event, a very Happy New Year to one and all.

I've posted a question in a new thread, inspired by the adjacent posts from you and Alan: https://knightmare.com/forum/41/6853

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Requiem » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:20 pm

Hey Drassil, thank you.

It’s a funny thing, the memory. You kind of know you know things, but it isn’t after such a length of time that you sit down and start replaying the memories in your head that you recall other bits.

I’ll check out the threat shortly. Before I do - helmets off to you, Mystara and anyone else involved in running this website. Without a doubt the best place online for any Knightmare fan.

Speaking of forgotten memories, it stands to reason that Alan and I met all those summers ago - even though I can’t recall it.

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Re: Series 8, Episode 10

Post by Requiem » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:33 pm

Hey Mashibinbin

I hadn’t thought of the article idea; I’ll check it out. Sadly I am not sure I have photographs. I will ask my mum when I next speak with her but our chaperone was David’s father - and clearly long, long before smartphones with cameras. Can you imagine if today’s tech - in and out of th game - were around at the time... After leaving school, I lost contact with my advisors and as I’m a social media sceptic (no accounts on any of them) I’ve never re-connected.

I still have my black Knightmare mug (in red writing) and astonishingly, the white Knightmare t-shirt we were given. I vowed I’d never throw either away. The mug annoyingly has a chip in the rim but the t-shirt is in remarkably good nick. Mostly because I was so worried about damaging it I barely ever wore it; in spite of the fact I’ve moved about a lot with work, it’s always safely followed me. I doubt of course it fits now - I gym and train a lot ??? I am also fairly certain the big ‘scroll’ we got that was signed by Treguard is somewhere tucked away in the depths of my parents’ attic. One of these days I am going on that treasure hunt, as daunting as it is.

I am more than happy to answer any questions - fire away as many as you like. I’ll do my best. There are other snippets I still recall that weren’t necessarily relevant to this thread so I skipped them. I presume there is a means to contact me via my profile here that’ll whizz across an email? Let me know if you need me to privately share my address.

I am also very keen to try and rewatch the show, so if there’s any mechanic that can alert to repeats on Challenge etc. then I’d be grateful. I don’t watch TV - with the exception of Arrow and Game of Thrones - so I’m well out of the loop with the best or most likely way to catch repeats.
I'm glad you enjoyed your experience and do keep your ears to the ground for future projects to get involved in such as the Midnight Hunt. For the time being Knightmare Chat is primarily open from 8pm on Sundays if you want to come along, you'd be highly welcome. :)
I certainly shall bear that in mind. I like the idea of meeting up with the community in real life so at the risk of sounding lazy (I have precious little spare time, alas) do keep me posted. I will of course keep an eye open for updates on here.

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