Those that were denied...

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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by GranitasIsCute » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:57 pm

I would disagree with that actually. After telling Nathan what he had to do, Maldame dismissed him and I don't think it was unwise of the team to follow this instruction. She'd already made it clear that she was not someone to be messed with.

Maybe they should have asked for something out of her, but under the circumstances I don't blame them too heavily for not doing so and I still think this was the best team of the series.

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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by pjmlfc05 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:44 pm

The team still should have asked for something in return before helping Maldame. That's why they ultimately failed near the end. Yes they were a good team but they messed up.
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by Canadanne » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:57 pm

I'm with Ross on this one. There was NO indication that the team needed to do anything differently (there would normally be some sort of prompt if they were meant to), and no clear opportunity for them to ask for a reward. And I'm not convinced they actually did mess up; it would be very easy for Treguard & Majida's conversation to have been filmed and inserted later as a false explanation for what went wrong. I don't believe they needed some special magic to get through the fireball room safely - their only mistake was apparently a careless sidestep.

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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by pjmlfc05 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:03 pm

In other quests though you often see teams asking what would they get back in return if they had to give a item to someone or to give a warning. Nathan and his team failed to do this. The team shouldn't have needed an indication whether to ask Maldame something in return. They were helping out so should have thought to ask a favour in return.

As for Treguard and Majida's conversation, I find it hard to believe it would have been filmed and inserted as a false explanation. That wouldn't make sense to me. I thought it tied in with what happened.
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by knightmaredave » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:46 pm

I feel with this team as great as they were they could have tackled that fire ballroom without magic i think Treguard always felt like he had to come up with something after deaths , hence suggesting maldamae should have given them something.
He did this with team 4 and 5 as well

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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by pjmlfc05 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:08 pm

knightmaredave wrote:I feel with this team as great as they were they could have tackled that fire ballroom without magic i think Treguard always felt like he had to come up with something after deaths , hence suggesting maldamae should have given them something.
He did this with team 4 and 5 as well
Not long after the scene with Maldame and Nathan, Treguard and Majida did talk about how generous they were to help Maldame without asking for something in return. On this occasion the producers might have felt as a one off, in order to tackle the fireball room, magic must be used.

It was the same with a team from series 4. On 1 occasion the team needed magic to pass the block and tackle room but they didn't have any and unfortunately perished. Other occasions magic wasn't required.
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by Canadanne » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:43 pm

pjmlfc05 wrote:It was the same with a team from series 4. On 1 occasion the team needed magic to pass the block and tackle room but they didn't have any and unfortunately perished. Other occasions magic wasn't required.
Yeah, and that's another example that reeks of being an invented explanation after the fact, because surely the spell was meant for Ariadne rather than the Block & Tackle...

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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by calavera » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:44 pm

Some of the details are different from my hazy memory, but this is surely the one I'm thinking of, thanks. I can't actually find any non-copywrited clips on youtube so I can't check it out myself, but based on the description it still sounds unfair to me. Dungeoneers are supposed to be noble, and if someone can't offer you something concrete in return you help them anyway on the basis your generosity will bear fruit later (maybe Maldane comes and distracts Lord Feare right as he's about to vaporise you, enabling you to escape) An alternative conversation and death that I wouldn't consider unfair:
(team needs to free Malderne, if they do she'll save them later but the character "Malderne" doesn't know that now so cannot bargain with that knowledge)
"Please free me"
"What will you give us"
"nothing"
"Really, nothing, then why should we help you?"
"I thought Dungeoneers were supposed to be noble. Begone, I'll find someone else!"
"OK we'll help you"
"Bah, too late, leave!"

Ending in death at the end even if the team recants. Tregaurd telling them off for being too mercenary. Requiring a team to ask twice to get a reward is not right in my opinion.

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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by pjmlfc05 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:45 pm

Canadanne wrote:
pjmlfc05 wrote:It was the same with a team from series 4. On 1 occasion the team needed magic to pass the block and tackle room but they didn't have any and unfortunately perished. Other occasions magic wasn't required.
Yeah, and that's another example that reeks of being an invented explanation after the fact, because surely the spell was meant for Ariadne rather than the Block & Tackle...
Another 2 examples was Sarah's team from series 5 when Elita refused to help her and perished on the corridor of blades. Also Daniel's team from series 8 when he didn't have a sight spell and again perished in the corridor of blades.

I think maybe the teams could have conquered the corridor of blades unaided but it seems strange that without the help they perished so it would appear they needed the help or a spell.
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by Canadanne » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:26 pm

Just so we're all on the same page, this is what happened in Nathan's quest:

Maldame was on a balcony in Linghorm. Treguard warned them to be cautious as she didn't seem to like anyone: "She's very powerful, very dangerous and very unpredictable." She complained about Nathan's lack of respect because he hadn't kneeled in front of her, and also stated that when she was his age, she didn't require help or handouts from anyone else. She then observed that his quest would take him to Marblehead.

Maldame: "Would you care to carry a small gift to Lord Fear for me?"
Nathan: "I would do that for you."
Maldame: "You will? Very good. You will find it aboard a Golden Galleon. It is a glass globe. Do not hand it to Lord Fear in person. Place it on the ground wherever you are when it starts to glow with an amber glow. Perhaps you're not such a frightful child after all! Thank you Nathan. Dismiss."

Seemingly during the next scene (but possibly filmed separately, as the team were neither shown nor heard during the conversation), Majida asked Treguard, "Was it right to accept task from Maldame without getting some kind of reward?" Treguard: "Well, in the circumstances, it seems extremely generous, but it's done now."

Later, when Nathan had sidestepped down a hole in the fireball chamber, Treguard told them: "Some extra magic might have helped you with this very difficult puzzle, team - and you could have got that magic from Maldame. But you didn't, did you?"

It is certainly open to interpretation whether or not this sequence of events can be taken at face value. In my opinion, if the team really were supposed to ask Maldame for a reward at that point, it was extremely unfair. She gave Nathan ONE brief opportunity to speak, and it's implied that he should have instinctively answered "What will you give me in return?" instead of politely agreeing to carry out a task for her. The team had no way of knowing there would be no further opportunity to negotiate the terms of the agreement, but once she had explained what she wanted him to do, she made it clear that the conversation was over. Harsh. Especially as she had only just ranted about young people being rude and expecting handouts, and they were trying not to get on the wrong side of her, as per Treguard's advice!

It should also be noted that when Hordriss asked Kelly to do him a favour in Series 5, she asked him what he would do for them in return, and he simply replied, "Ah, that is for you to discover when you have agreed to help me." It was supposed to be a risky decision that they would have to make. There was no reason to believe that the situation with Nathan and Maldame was any different.
Last edited by Canadanne on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by wombstar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:31 pm

Sometimes a teams needed a spell for the Play your cards right room.
If a team dies in the Blades you don't need to tell them they should have needed a spell, you let them think they just weren't good enough, I like to think theses rooms can and should be done without magic (magic should make it easier, but if they're good enough to survive without then far play to them, those rooms are tough)

But had a team insisted on getting help I doubt any info or magic would have been related to the block and tackle or blades. but we shall never know.

It's like the producers have already decided which team they're gonna allow or help win.
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by pjmlfc05 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:55 pm

Also for Barry's quest he needed to take a sight potion to help him with play your cards right but for Julie's quest no spells were needed.

I still say for all the teams affected how come they all perished if they required magic or extra help but didn't earn it? If they genuinely didn't need any spells or anything else then I would put it down to the teams panicking and it got to them.
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by wombstar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:11 pm

How does the sight spell work? His in a green screen room LOL.
and how on earth does seeing that room help in solving the puzzle?
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by pjmlfc05 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:22 pm

wombstar wrote:How does the sight spell work? His in a green screen room LOL.
and how on earth does seeing that room help in solving the puzzle?
For Barry's quest in series 7 when he had to take the sight potion, Barry indicated he could see the playing cards. I don"t know if there was a device in the helmet to enable him to see something. Prehaps Alan could shed some light on this?

It obviously helped Barry because he stated he could see the playing cards. Also when Ben from series 7 took a site potion he said he could see the whole room. I.e he basically sees what the team, Treguard and Madija are viewing on the screen in the antechamber.
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Re: Those that were denied...

Post by wombstar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:44 pm

I always thought with the sight spell he might have been able to open the visor and saw the room from a screen opposite him, at the room goes left to right the screen wouldn't be in sight for the viewer.

Still not sure how it would help, you've still got to solve the puzzle and most deaths were from teams not touching the correct card and nothing to do with navigation. Other teams certainly didn't need a sight spell, but is sad that a team would be forced killed in that room had they not picked up magic, magic should be an aide no necessary essential for that type of puzzle.
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