Thoughts on VR

A place to discuss Knightmare-VR, a planned revivial of Knightmare
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Criz
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Thoughts on VR

Post by Criz » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:07 pm

Having looked through the new VR video here's my tuppence on the new idea:

A lot of the new computer generated stuff is great. New camera angles and the ability to make the dungeon surroundings feel bigger more epic works well.

Here are the things I don't think work quite as well BUT please if the VR people are reading, take this as suggestions rather than complaints as I have no idea how the VR will finally be presented and how much more work you are doing on the VR system:

People will always be better than VR - there's just something about the way people interact with each other (especially the dungeoneer and the dungeon actors) and I think that's what made KM special. The computer graphics just made it possible.

Please use the wonderful engine you have created to make better dungeons and wonderful scenery - that is where I believe the computer progress should be evident and also in the improvments in the Chroma-key process.

However, if you avatar the human parts out of KM. You have an audience watching kids play KM the computer game. Have you ever watched over someone's shoulder while they played a RP game on the computer? It's not that exciting.

Is it possible to have the VR inside the helmet so that the dungeoneer can see the dungeon from his perspective ? I'm sure you could hide antennae in a helmet that big ;D

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by WillsOfDoom » Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:34 pm

Interesting point about watching other people play a computer game. But wasn't the original show just watching others play their game?

Personally I think avataring dungeoneers is slightly risky because it may de-humanise the player a bit, but not completely. Real people are still playing like they always were, it's only the appearance and movements of the dungeoneer and characters that stop it from being exactly like it was before.
I agree with you that the interaction of the players is something that can be flawed by avataring. You can't beat reality when interaction is concerned.

Does anyone think that, with all this fantastically animated new dungeon, a real dungeoneer would look out of place now?
I like my telly scary, and very dungeonish.

Criz
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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by Criz » Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:48 pm

I guess with me the original KM wasn't quite like just watching someone playing a game because you knew the poor sap with the big helmet who couldn't see where he/she was going was actually down there trying to sidestep across, or jump blindly across, what to us looked like a yawning chasm. I think that was the difference. Personally I think the whole "being blind" thing would probably be more accepted than people think.

With a "real" dungeoneer versus a lovely rendered dungeon, I'm not sure. Depends how good the merging process is - although that Sky Captain film was done fairly cheaply comparatively right - and that came out ok?

I guess the real question I am thinking about is: Dungeoneer clothes - appropriate period costume for the dugeoneer or whatever clothes they came in?? :P

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by HarveyTowers » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:13 pm

They let the dungeoneers were thier own clothes in the original (expect they couldn't wear blue due to the tecnology used)

But as dungeoners are now more absorbed in the world than ever before, perhaps dungeon costume would be apprioate. But then maybe they wouldn't stand out as being seperate from the dungeon?

I don't know, it's a hard one to call.
Good night out there; whatever you are!

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by Criz » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:25 pm

I guess plain clothes would be fun if Tregard and the other people in the dungeon made appropriate amusing sarcastic remarks about the "unusual" clothing. Didn't characters do that in the original series from time to time?

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by TheIronMaiden » Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:26 pm

I wasn't very fond of the avatar in those clips, it looked rather cliche and childish (the outfit), not to mention the fact that it moved very unconvincingly. However, I'm not sure about superimposing a real person on a VR dungeon though. Maybe it's because all this is new to me, but in my mind's eye a real person would stand out as more alien in the new dungeon than in the original series - because they were so low-tech back then, you cut it a lot of slack. Make sense?

Maybe I'm talking balls. Because now I think about it, it's not so bad...ohhh, this new crap is so disorientating! :P

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by mono_eric3 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:12 pm

What exactly is the point?

It seems to me that the VR knightmare takes the whole 'mates guiding a blind adventurer' aspect and removes it. thus leaving... what?

I always thought the whole point was that the poor guy couldnt see anything apart from what was under his nose. The only benefit i can see from VR is if they altered the helmet so the guy wouldn't see mostly blue screen under his nose then yeah, that would be cool and kind of add to the 'knightmare' a little. But controlling a computer charcter around seems pretty lame to me.

Take a look at the pics though, jeez!

http://www.televirtual.com/knight_img4.jpg

How scary is gorping at an egg screen gonna be? How many peeps wanted to be that lone guy with the oversize helmet on wandering about in some massive warehouse painted blue, everyone knew how it was done and no-one cared, because it just seemed so cool. People walking up to you and talking at you and you dont have a clue who they are. Picking up random stuff that your mates seem to think might be some use. It was the whole point, this VR stuff just seems more dated that the original. Reminds me of Motormouth where poor saps used to try and direct a guy away from the path of the tyranosaur using their phone keypad, bit naff.

Maybe im just being over nostalgic.

: D
Last edited by mono_eric3 on Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by Fidjit » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:18 pm

In some wys thats how I feel about it, but it is good that all the origional characters are back with new ones too
If the only way is onward how would you get home for tea?? :-/

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by mono_eric3 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:25 pm

Cant argue with that, it is cool to see a new Knightmare story. It seems to be in exactly the same vein, just a shame the game isnt.

: D

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by elpasso » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:43 pm

I have just discovered this KnightmareVR thing and I am both overjoyed and dismayed at the same time. If it means that Knightmare is finally coming back it is wonderful news, its about time. But the way KnightmareVR is looking and the changes, disapoint me.
As has been said by others, alowing the dungeoneer to see where he is going completly defeats the point... why would he need the other team member(s) telling him what to do?
I also don't think having an avatar is a good idea - a real person is more involved, gives a sense of some actual danger and excitement and much more entertaining to watch. I am sure it would be possible to have a real person in the dungeon in much the same way as before but this time with the 3d rooms. You could still have the different camera angles and such like they have in the pilot but match the virtual room camera to a camera in a bluescreen room with the dungeoneer.
I realise that the videoclips were from a pilot so I presume the cg is gonna be a hell of a lot better... then again.. fightbox made it onto our screens.
If KnightmareVR does go into production I think, unfortunatly, that it will disapoint the old fans and fail to capture the hearts of any new ones.

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by Virius » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:22 pm

When I heard Knightmare coming back I couldn't have been more excited...and then came the screenshots of VR and wept bitter tears....well, that was for other reasons but what have they done? Where the cool guy with the beard and studded leather armour? Why's the team made of 2 year olds? (Exaduration I know but hey). And where's the helmet? Doesn't everyone wanna just wear the helmet and scream "Where am I?" It's not gonna have the same effect as before, who cares is a little badly animated character falls down a hole? Didn't it feel more real with a person walking around talking to other real people. If they need people for it, I can bet a few hundred people here would jump at the chance!! ;) If they need a new DM...*cough* ;D

Although...a Knightmare console/pc game would be VERY nice....*ponders*
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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by Fidjit » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:38 am

A PC Game was mentioned sometime ago, but I don't know if there are any plans regarding this...
If the only way is onward how would you get home for tea?? :-/

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Re:Thoughts on VR

Post by Quitch » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:26 pm

As someone who loved KM as a kid, I took a look at the pilot. I'm afraid I wasn't overly impressed.

The team dynamic is gone, now that the dungeoneer can see I wondered what the point of the adviser was. Just another pair of eyes?

Not only that, but KM has gone from cutting edge to retro. Aiming for the complete computer generated effect is a big mistake. Nothing dates faster than computer graphics. KM had backdrops far in advance of anything on your computer screen, but these days it wasn't going to be possible, not on a TV show budget under TV show time constraints. Slap a new costume on an actor... new character! For a computer you need to create, model, skin and animate them. It also left me wondering why I would want to play when it looked like little more than a basic adventure game I could trump with something from my games collection.

The blind navigation, contrary to what some have said, was central to knightmare. The dungeoneer was in control, but the advisers were better informed. The dynamic between the two is what made the game, and that it involved real people meant it could adapt on the fly in a way the new version cannot.

I'd love to see KM come back, updated for the modern world. I'd hoped to see changes which reflected the fact that the dungeoneer can see, but it simply looked like KM, with more graphics, less advisers, with the same old puzzles. You cannot remove one of the central elements and change nothing else to compensate... where was the tension in the jumping element? The axe swings were irregular, the jumps couldn't be misjudged, you simply needed to get the letters right...

I hoped for so much, but it was, I'm afraid to say, a disappointing experience. Sorry.

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