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Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:22 pm
by Gizensha
Kieran wrote:
Harvey Towers wrote: I suppose it depends who owns it, if it is the original composer still then perhaps as a collective we could could try to persuade him...
Ed Welch owns it, and from what I gather, tends to gain more royalties from the show then TC does! Only chance is Ed Welch composing a new version of the tune, I think but I agree in that it should return to the new series.
So that would put the theme tune in the same boat as the doctor who theme tune, pretty much, then? 'Stupidly expensive per second'

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:00 pm
by Lord_Bob
While I agree having the original theme would only make the show better & more traditional for use die-hard fans, if it is 'Stupidly expensive per second' then we have to ask ourselves if it's worth worrying about a minute worth of title music. Would be great to see it return though, I don't mind too much if it is missing, as long as they don't make the dwarf tunnel music the themetune!

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:00 pm
by Gizensha
Something similar to the music that was used for the causeway would work well, but a little more jazzy and less atmospheric, I feel.

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:36 am
by jaydrive
My first niggle on the pilot...

Dwarf Tunnels - The music doesn't suit it at all, so i'm hoping that it's on being used as a "stand in" and it should be a bit darker.

Clue Room - Erm, my niggle here was the way they selected the objects. I was thinking maybe they could touch it and the object fades from the table and the icon fades onto the inventory?

Despair's Ice Block - We could barely see the Elf Maid inside of it, i'm not sure if that's our monitor or not, but maybe the ice could have a bit more transparency.
Audio - Every time the dungeoneer spoke, there was this annoying hiss... i don't think he wants to grow up and be lissard so i hope that get's fixed.

I do have another niggle, but not sure if this has already been discussed - Is there going to be a Helm of Justice or has that been skipped for the new Avatar format? I thought that they would have the helm on, but they would still be able to see due to the "magic of the helm" a bit like the adventure game books.

Spellcasting was pretty good, but maybe a little effects on the letters to fade them out when the spell activates with the music? They could just go "poof" in a cloud of gold smoke or something.

Otherwise, I'm impressed - good work by Tim and the TV crew there, and i hope it keeps up.

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:14 am
by beveryafraid
Good thread this.
The original plan for the pilot sequence (NB NOT episode) was to have the dwarf tunnels fully interactive, with encounters, decisions (junctions), and perhaps some animated monsters (patrolling skeletrons, etc).
Sadly we just ran out of time and resource, so we used the tunnels models in a simple fashion with music as interstitials, to join the scenes (chambers) together.
There is no intention to do this is any production series, because in my view, while it provides continuity, it disprupts the narrative and decreases the tension.
So it was just a stog gap measure.
The original theme music isn't an Ed Welch problem. The rights are controlled by EMI music, and you can't haggle with them.
Similarly we didn't use a Life Force clock in the sequence because it was considered too brief to explain the function to people unfamiliar with Knightmare.
The presentation by the Goblin is also a one-off form and doesn't inidcate any inention of using him in this role in a subsequent series.
Hope this helps?


Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:31 am
by Emii
Thanks, BVA! That helps a lot :)

I really, really like the idea of interactive tunnels without the cheesy music - understandably there would have been a limit on time and resources (though I forgot about that possibility :-X). To be perfectly honest the idea of gaming with absolutely no breaks from the danger which the old series dwarf tunnels used to give, in a way, does appeal to me :)

It's a pity about the theme tune - a take on the original would have been nice, but obviously not everything is possible :)

The jump from three advisors down to one was a little bit disappointing. Is there a possibility that the old team theme could come back? I used to like the idea of the kids having to work as a team and sort out disputes as well as use their knowledge.

The Helm of Justice is also a nostalgic idea - lots of people would recognise the whole horned job! It doesn't really need a practical purpose on the avatar though the 'protection from the magic within' would be a nice touch, just for the older audience :)

That's my winge over :D lol...

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:58 pm
by TheBrollachan
That does explain a bit.

It would be nice to see a modern version of the corridor of blades. It would be a sort of thing that could be encorporated into the dwarf tunnels, so that if they went the wrong way in the tunnels they ended in a variation of the CoB. I like the idea of the dwarf tunnels being fully interactive as it worked well in series 6 & 7 of KM which had encounters and clue objects in.

What sort of life-force clock are you planning to use. Maybe the life-force could be illustrated by a helmet of justice? Provided it is not a pie I'm not too bothered. ;)

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:21 pm
by keke
I want majida and tregaurd back. maybe in the antechamber they could be speaking from far away(using the avatar heads). hmmm i am wondering about how the team will be introduced into the antechamber. i really hope that it gets commisioned and a full series is made. it looks so good

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:16 pm
by jaydrive
My curiousity lies with "transforming" contestant to dungeoneer. Is this on the TV site on are we going to be in suspense again?

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:45 pm
by 123Pooka
Just watched the pilot episode in full, which I enjoyed very much,
my favourite moments: despair's causeway, the music used for it, the 'slice me dice me' puzzle

Perhaps a harder version of 'slice me dice me' could be in level 2? Can't think of a catchy name, but (as you can probably guess) I was thinking of rising spikes instead of swinging axes. They would be quite unpredictable, and who knows, might impale a poor unsuspecting dungeoneer whilst he's leaping from platform to platform. Perhaps thats a bit too gory :o
I like Despair, he reminds me of a cross between the gargoyles from the early series and the ol' door monsters.

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:06 am
by jaydrive
Julian Fries? :-P

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:23 pm
by Amorya
OK, while the sequence is not nearly as bad as I feared, I think it needs a fair bit of tweaking. Basically, it's in an "almost there" state, but a few things make it not as coherent as it could be.

The music has been mentioned.

One of the points of Knightmare for me has always been team dynamics. The one advisor sort of lost that - especially as that girl never sounded unsure of anything! My advice would be to fit the dungeon out in VR, but have the antechamber exactly as it was from the original show, with Treguard and the team and an annoying assistant.

Lord Fear and Lissard were great - no complaints there. Although I miss the whole "put it down!!!" bit of the spyglasses.

One thing I didn't like was the fact that the dungeoneer seemed to have very little freedom to move. I think they should be able to use their hands - pick up and explore the items on the table. I didn't like the whole "just name the items and you'll have them" bit - it's like a jarring reminder that you're inside a giant computer game. If you have to do things like that for technical limitation (and original KM knew all about that!), explain them within the story somehow - use magic if you must :)

On the movement front, I'm wondering how much control the player gets of the character. It seemed very "we-face-90-degrees-at-all-times", like an old computer game. I don't know if that was the fault of the controlling kid, or if that's another technical hitch. Also, in the slice-me-dice-me room (which was excellent otherwise btw), the jumping seemed too precise - like he hit a jump key and had no chance of missing the target.

Ideally for me, the dungeoneer would wear a VR helmet and motion sensors - so their avatar could be mapped to their actual movement, and they'd actually have to make the physical jump, albeit in an empty room. That'd be very true to the spirit of KM, and would make the character feel much more organic and less stilted. Jumping would be nailbiting - would they make it? - instead of just a "do-we-know-the-right-word?".

Sorry to seem to criticise. What I'm trying to get across is, any technical limitation can be explained around - KM certainly has a legacy of that! But it needs tension. Suspense and the like. If this is just level one then fine, but I want a room where the challenge is either very hard and must be debated on what to do, or one where it's actually hard to physically complete the task. A variety of both on higher levels would be ace.

Overall, if this was the actual show as it stands then 6.5 out of 10. For a beta I won't rate it, but it shows a lot of promise. The tech is nearly there... now you need to recreate the whole KM atmosphere. And after seeing what you've done to the Opposition, I reckon you're up to the task!


Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:01 pm
by Metal7
I don't like the virtual idea at all, so this will probably be a worthless post. It just feels to me like two kids in the middle of nowhere not doing much, and because it's all "virtual" it is nowhere as real as the orginial Knightmare felt.

The least they could do is have the three advisors put back in place with Treguard looking at the virtual world through a monitor on a wall. Basically, the original Knightmare, just with "virtual reality" instead of the blue screen.

Although, forgetting the original Knightmare, it looks good, it'll definitely be commissioned, though I don't see it lasting more than a series.

I hope we see items being put into a knapsack rather than moving to the top of the screen. The thing that they see Lord Fear through looks weird. The spyglass made sense and the name "spyglass" was ideal for it.

The lack of the helmet of justice lessens the advisor's role in it all. Without advisors giving directions it's going to be quiet a lot of the time and therefore less interesting. I'm sure the kids could easily get bored by that and turn over to see what else is on.

The way the dungeoneer was walking was rather camp, and that reminds me... I don't like hearing the term "avatar" when the word "dungeoneer" is fine, because it makes the game seem less dungeon-like.

And the music in the tunnels... it's hilarious!

Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:19 pm
by LordGoomba
Was that Hugo Myatt as Tregaurd's voice, or another voice actor.


Re:Km-VR Pilot Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:16 pm
by Kieran
From what I gather, it was Hugo Myatt himself.