Were they that bad?

Series, Teams, History, Behind the scenes etc. - all discussed here.

Are the Opposition *really* evil?

vil! Evil! B*stards! Evil!
5
36%
hey're just misunderstood.
5
36%
t was all PTB propaganda!
4
29%
 
Total votes: 14

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HStorm
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Were they that bad?

Post by HStorm » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:15 pm

The series in the later years always trying to present the Greater Game as a clearly-defined war between Good and Evil. But if you look at the facts, were the Opposition really that bad?

All right, so Skarkill was a bit of a sadist, and Hands had a penchant for taking other people's property and no baths, but the scenario overall was that the Powers That Be were trying to steal treasures from Lord Fear, who was simply prepared to fight ruthlessly to keep what was his. I mean, someone sneaks into your home and tries to steal the family silver, wouldn't you be prepared to resort to violence to hang onto it?

The series really was presented from a very slanted point of view, so much so it could almost be seen as propaganda for the PTB. Apart from destroying Witchhaven without provocation, and some of their schemes against Hordriss, it's hard to think of anything the Opposition did that wasn't mitigated to some degree by circumstances; every single one of Lord Fear's moves against dungeoneers were, in the cold light of day, entirely justified by being part of the Game (he could have done far, far worse things to them than anything we saw in the series).

So what do you reckon; were the Opposition really anything like as evil as Treguard was always painting them?
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Re:Were they that bad?

Post by Snowcat » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:34 pm

Put like that... You may have a point.

Not that I'm siding with the opposition of course! (Strictly "of the Grey" here)

All the various measures and nasties that Lord Fear placed into the dungeon were always classed as "Security" rather than an out and out attempt to find the dungeoneer. Instead placed in the path of a quest for them to stumble on.

HOWEVER, There is also the fact that Treguard was Dungeonmaster first, long before Fear made his official appearance. Is it not possible that Fear was trying to secure a land grab that Treguard was wanting back?

Lord Fears presence only really goes as far as the deeper levels. Level 1 and the majority of level 2 were guarded by henchme rather than Fears magic directly. It appears to me as a "Turf War" for territory.

To quote a famous game, "There is no good and evil, merely a difference of opinion."
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Re:Were they that bad?

Post by Fidjit » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:55 pm

Lord Fear (in a way) kinda reminds me of Carakticus P Doom from "Avenger Penguins" he thinks he's purely evil when he's a bungling idiot who can't get anything right ;D

There again if Fear and his cronies did the job properly then the show would have been boring or simply too difficult to defeat. Give those poor kids a chance eh? :D :P
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Re:Were they that bad?

Post by HStorm » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:44 pm

Snowcat wrote: Not that I'm siding with the opposition of course!
I don't see why not though. I think there are probably a number of closet Opposition-supporters on this forum! You know who you are, splitters... ;D
Is it not possible that Fear was trying to secure a land grab that Treguard was wanting back?
Anything's possible, but I don't see any evidence of it.
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Re:Were they that bad?

Post by AriadnesLayer » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:05 pm

I don't see any evidence that the quest objects were rightfully Lord Fears, especially considering they were around in the dungeon long before LF came along.

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Re: Re:Were they that bad?

Post by HStorm » Mon May 25, 2009 7:59 am

Ariadne's Layer wrote:I don't see any evidence that the quest objects were rightfully Lord Fears, especially considering they were around in the dungeon long before LF came along.
No, but then I don't see any evidence that Treguard had a right to them either. And as they were in Fear's possession, and Treguard was effectively trying to steal them, the morality was even at best.

Also, consider that with the exception of the Cup That Heals, the objects were only around for about one season before LF arrived. In the first season there were no particular quest objects, except in quest six, and in seasons two and three, they were different quest objects e.g. the Sword was the Sword of Justice, not the Sword of Freedom, and the Shield was the Shield of Liberty, not the Shield of Justice.

One possibility is that Mogdred successfully claimed and united the fragments of the original quest objects between seasons 3 and 4 - the power he gained by doing this would be what allowed him to make the Dungeon grow and spread so far in such a short time - and he was able to use the enlarged Dungeon territories to claim the new quest objects as well. Then when he disappeared, Lord Fear took his place and, as it were, 'inherited' all of Mogdred's treasure.

Not a particularly honourable legacy, but then they hardly ever were in the medieval era.

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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by Mystara » Mon May 25, 2009 10:00 am

What I find interesting is how in the beginning, it seemed to be referred to as either Treguard's dungeon, or THE dungeon, that Treguard had mastered. Either way, the early implication seemed to be that Treguard was in control.

When Mogdred popped up, I still didn't really consider him to be the head of the opposition, since he seemed to be opposed by Merlin rather than Treguard.

I suspect the underlying reason for the change was that it made little sense to send a dungeoneer in to the dungeon to "hang out", and that a quest was required. At that point, you introduce quest objects and from there, you obviously need someone to defend them. There can't really be a search for the items, since the progression through the dungeon is linear.

I don't believe anyone makes any claim to owning the quest objects - just to possessing them.
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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by PookasRule » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:14 pm

I like to compare it to the classic quests for Excalibur and the Holy Grail. Nobody legally "owned" those objects, but they were sought by many different parties for good or bad purposes and there were many who were prepared to fight or even to kill for them. Since we don't actually know what the quest objects were used for we have no way of knowing if Treguard has any right to them or if Lord Fear/Mogdred does or if both parties are entitled to them. It's entirely an assumption.

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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by Snowcat » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:44 pm

We don't even know if the quest objects STAYED in the winners posession after a quest was completed!

Anyone remember the succesful quest for the Cup that was followed by... The quest for the cup?

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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by HStorm » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:06 pm

Welllllllllll... it's possible to hold the FA Cup, the League Cup and the World Club Cup at the same time, so that proves it makes sense. Or something.

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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by Gizensha » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:40 am

Snowcat wrote:We don't even know if the quest objects STAYED in the winners posession after a quest was completed!

Anyone remember the succesful quest for the Cup that was followed by... The quest for the cup?
Didn't one of the seasons block out the option to Quest for a Quest Option that had already been chosen? The one where the choice was via bridges to portals with the quest object symbols over the four portals, as I recall.

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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by HStorm » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:27 am

Snowcat wrote:Anyone remember the successful quest for the Cup that was followed by... The quest for the cup?
Actually, I've just realised that I don't remember that; no team ever won on the Quest for the Cup. Mind you, in season 6, Team 5 won the Crown, and the next quest was also for the Crown. Was that the one you were thinking of?
Gizensha wrote:Didn't one of the seasons block out the option to Quest for a Quest Object that had already been chosen? The one where the choice was via bridges to portals with the quest object symbols over the four portals, as I recall.
That's the season 6 'Place of Choice' you're describing. And no, it didn't block out any of the options, somewhat strangely (see above). If I recall correctly though, after Ben's team claimed the Shield in season 5, the teams that followed were only offered the three other options.

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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by Snowcat » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:58 pm

HStorm wrote:
Snowcat wrote:Anyone remember the successful quest for the Cup that was followed by... The quest for the cup?
Actually, I've just realised that I don't remember that; no team ever won on the Quest for the Cup. Mind you, in season 6, Team 5 won the Crown, and the next quest was also for the Crown. Was that the one you were thinking of?
Ah yeah... sorry. Yer spot on. I simply remember a quest being won then quested for straight after.

Kinda adds some weight to the idea that the quest items don't "truly" exist. They're simply tokens of victory to be taken from the opposition. If you can...

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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by Pooka » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:29 pm

The Crown, I think.
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Re: Were they that bad?

Post by Naitch » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:41 am

This is an interesting discussion!

If we go back to the books, Dunshelm/Knightmare Castle is Treguard's birthright anyway. In wresting his castle back from the Gruagach and inheriting the dungeon in the process, he wasn't stealing, just reclaiming what was supposed to be his anyway.

Also, in Can You Beat The Challenge, Folly states that the Gruagach thrives on competition and that they have to be given a chance to face him.

Mybe that was still the case when Lord Fear replaced him.

Maybe he has to make mistakes so the Dungeoneers get as close to him as possible.

So were the Oppostiton that bad? Yes and no.

While they were part of the evil of the Dungeon Dimension, and Lord Fear and Mogdred could have used their power to quash a quest in an instant, that would have left no competition and no contest so it must be the need that the Oppostition has to face the enemy that causes their blunders to be made.

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