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Posted: 04 Apr 2003, 22:41
by beveryafraid
All Knightfans - please take this as a friendly warning. Illegal copies of Knightmare programmes have appeared for sale on the Internet, and there is a real possibility of a prosecution. I know that some of you copy programmes for each other, and the practice is understandable and unlikely to attract attention so long as it remains non commercial and within the fan base. But once money starts to change hands, it puts you at real risk. I'd hate to see any of you swept up in an anti-piracy operation. So please be cautious and above all be discreet.


Posted: 05 Apr 2003, 03:08
by Malefact
When I found out about tape-trading I did spend a while contemplating whether or not to buy some, weighing up all the risks.

As far as I know, the majority of trading is indeed non commercial and within the fan base.

In addition, we have campaigned vigourously for a legitimate release of the series; tape-trading is pretty much the last resort since it is the only way for fans to get copies (I still cannot believe how stupid I was in not thinking ahead and keeping my original recordings!) especially considering the prohibitive cost of archive copies made from the master tapes.

Were there an official release, then piracy would be a lot more serious - the supply company would be losing money. As the situation currently stands, there's no real harm being done. More than that, I'm sure we'd all upgrade to an official release anyway - especially if it were on DVD.

However, piracy IS piracy. Thanks for the warning, bva.


Posted: 05 Apr 2003, 04:40
by GrimaldineGrimwold
I suppose it'd do some harm to Anglia's potential future income from Knightmare if such piracy became widespread. So to stop it getting widespread, you have to take a stance on piracy when it does occur.

I suppose a crucial thing here is the tape or tapes that have appeared on auction/sale on the Web somewhere. From what Tim said, I'd guess the powers that be have gotten a sniff of this and decided this is a step too far.

Anglia clearly have known for some time people have offered to "trade" tapes. As it clearly says on their website, the programme is still under copyright. As there was never an official video release, any videos on sale on the internet are illegal. If you pay money for tapes, you are buying illegal pirate copies.

Interestingly, Anglia also mention the possibility of a DVD release. They sound like they'd welcome the chance if a suitable proposal was made:  "Although there's currently a great market for classic Children's TV programmes on video and even on DVD, Anglia TV has not yet been approached with any workable proposals for a video release of Knightmare." The emphasis is their own, not mine. I suppose for all those who'd like to like full legal copies of the original series, campaigning for a company to do a DVD release is the best way to go.

Piracy is bad: Illegal videos, eye patches, plank walking, parrots on shoulders, silly phrases like "aha me hearties"- all of it.


Posted: 05 Apr 2003, 12:28
by PunmiesterWhiteley
Captain Nemeanor wont be happy with this.  Offenders should walk the plank off the Golden Galleon.


Posted: 05 Apr 2003, 19:26
by Kieran
This comes off the back on some dodgy trading on E-Bay, some selling interviews that were not even theirs for HUGE prices, and some selling KM series' for idiotic prices.

It is people like that who have caused the bother [eg selling s4 for £50+), so it is a wise move to now be very cautious.  

I shall finish off my orders then stop the trading, it is a big shame because I merely wished to distribute the series to the people who want to see it, for no profit either.

Not meant to scare anyone here :)

But it is a big shame what has happened, as always, it only takes one or two to ruin something for...hundreds.


Posted: 05 Apr 2003, 21:00
by Illusion
In light of this, all threads on this forum that refer to tape trading and individuals who may be involved with it have been removed. Whilst it probably wouldn't have caused any harm to leave it there, I thought it should be removed just to be on the safe side.

No doubt in future, members (particularly 'Knewbies') will post messages requesting info on tape trading etc. In this case maybe it would be better if members respond to those posts privately, rather than over the fourm.


Posted: 06 Apr 2003, 02:53
by Steve
Is this about those KM tapes on E-Bay? jeez i was gunna buy those!

Not gunna anymore though, i'll wait for a legal solution to present itself.

Naturally, I'd really love to have all the Knightmare episodes on tape(or DVD) but i'm not gunna cross Tim on this matter - we all owe him alot.


Posted: 06 Apr 2003, 19:31
by Kieran
That is probably a good idea Nic, although this posts itself incriminates itself :)

This pushes the need for a DVD release even more, if we can no longer do this then they can't just sit on the material!


Posted: 06 Apr 2003, 20:39
by GrimaldineGrimwold
This pushes the need for a DVD release even more, if we can no longer do this then they can't just sit on the material!
Absolutely. Sitting on the material earns them nothing, but if they were reasonable about a DVD release, they could get a fair bit of cash from it.

Talking about the DVD possibility may seem a little off topic, but I think it has significant relevance. If there was a legal DVD out there, then the temptation of people to seek "any" copy (legal or otherwise) would be lessened. I don't condone any sort of piracy, but Granada Int. (or whoever) must understand people's frustration that they can't get hold of copies of a show with enduring popularity without paying extortionate fees.

So on the DVD issue, which I wasn't really much involved with before now, would those who've been trying on this front care to tell us the state of affairs:
- what's Anchor Bay's latest official response? Are they still going to consider it? If so, when does it come up for a review?
- have people contacted other companies that produce DVDs in related genres? What were the responses? Even if they turned us down flat, it'd be good to know so we can limit the search for someone.

I just tried a basic "classic children's television DVD" search on Google, and it came up with some interesting companies, some of whom definitely look like they should be interested in a programme like this. I won't say more here, since I don't know who's been tried already.

Thanks guys.


Posted: 07 Apr 2003, 02:59
by Pooka
Yeah. I know copying is piracy and stuff. I'd say it might be okay if a few episodes were copied for, like, a friend or something. But what really messes the thing up is when people atsrt making profit. Now that is illegal.
BVA, you once said you couldn't stop us copying tapes of Knightmare (in the past), bu I truly agree with you here.
As they say on the warnings - video piracy is a crime, do not accept it.


Posted: 07 Apr 2003, 18:00
by beveryafraid
Good to see the offending problem is now absent from Ebay. In response to posts from Malefact and others, let's examine cause and effect on copying. Whilst VHS was the common form of video release, issuing an official version of the KM made programs was not considered economically feasible. Now that DVD is in full flood as a format, this has changed, because a DVD release can take place on a much smaller volume market. Granada Media (Anglia owners) are now genuinely interested in doing a DVD release combining all the KM made programmes + extras. However they're still cautious as to how big the market is, and worse still they are concerned that much of the needs of that market have been already met by illegal tape copying, So you see - what you do does have an effect - and sometimes the opposite of what you intend. As to identifying the economic losers in copying, you may be right that it's close to a drop in the ocean for G Media. However, all the KM actors and artists whose work you admire are all potential
ly poorer by this operation. Most of them, whilst extremely talented, are far from rich.
I will do my best to persuade G Media to release via DVD and support it with extra content - like the 1992 US Pilot - Lords of the Game, which none of you has seen.



Posted: 07 Apr 2003, 18:39
by Malefact
Ah. That's an awkward one. Well, as I say, I'm sure that we'd all upgrade to DVD anyway if a release happened. I certainly would; I'd want the best possible quality. Please assure Granada of this - VHS doesn't last forever, anyway.

In any case, the last thing any of us would want is to leave the cast and crew out of pocket. If there were an official release then we would most certainly take advantage of it.

Thanks very much indeed for your support, bva.  ;)

Btw, I had no idea there was a US pilot made! I'm aware of the two UK pilots made before series 1 and of the Chromakey experiment but that's about it. This is marvellous! A clutch of extras like that, I am sure, will be a huge draw for all of us. (I know it will be for me!)


Posted: 07 Apr 2003, 19:34
by GrimaldineGrimwold
Yes, it really will help a great deal for Granada to hear your thoughts.

I guess most of us knew that the piracy hurt the chance of any release, and indeed the chances of a channel reshowing the episodes, by decreasing the potential market. Now that such illegal activities have ceased, there's surely some cause for optimism, however:

a) It's good to hear that Granada are indeed interested in securing a release. As I mentioned before, getting some revenue from this show certainly makes sense from their point of view.

b) Granada are surely overly pessimistic in thinking that the market needs have been anywhere near satisfied by illegal trading. Firstly, I doubt that there have been a huge number of such tapes made- it really seems to have been the actions of a few people. Secondly, the demand for tapes has always been pretty constant, if the number of people coming to this site and saying "can I get videos?" is anything to go by. Thirdly, a great number of people- myself included- won't buy illegal tapes and have always waited for a legal option to present itself. Fourthly, the market the nostalgia seem to be growing all the time. Fifthly, the market isn't limited to those currently visiting this site or those who have visited here and elsewhere in the past. Sixthly (okay, I'll stop soon), a great number of people have watched the show on Challenge?, and if they do stop showing it, it seems to be because of a change in direction/ specialisation in certain types of gameshows, rather than the ratings being poor. Certainly if they do stop showing it, there'll be a great number of people still wanting some legal way to see the episodes. Seventhly (last one) I'm sure a very high proportion of those with pirate copies would upgrade to an official edition, especially considering the possibility of added extras, better picture quality, and all the other advantages that DVD allows.

c) Extraswise, as everyone has said, there are lots of possibilities that would give a release many advantages over pirate copies some may already have. Since the actors would seemingly benefit from a release, it'd be in their interests to help provide any extras they could. For example, even if they didn't get paid much for appearing in any documentary/interviews/additional footage, they'd benefit from the deal as a whole. And evidently Tim himself has a lot of things that could go on there: I really don't think there'd be any lack of material.

d) There are lots of people around in this community who'd be willing to pull things together, to gather information, to conduct interviews, and several people with technical expertise in various areas. If Granada and/or any DVD release company wanted not to have to bother with such activities, they could be confident of finding others to do so.

I could go on, but this post is already long enough. It's obviously good that the piracy is stopping- the very fact it went on made several of us a little uncomfortable. I'd still love to hear answers to the questions I posted before. Perhaps then we can try to move forward with the idea. :)

(Just added a few spaces to make it easier to read - Illusion)


Posted: 07 Apr 2003, 19:56
by Steve
I Will certainly buy the DVD release if and when it comes out (dispite the need for a DVD player) and i'll help out any way i can with making it.

If you gotta have the KM recording's (and most of us DO) have them PROPERLY!


Posted: 07 Apr 2003, 20:04
by JoeGrocottJames
Unfortunately, I don't have a DVD player at all and will be unlikely to be able to buy one anytime soon :( (although I would probably buy a Knightmare DVD anyway on the off-chance). (On that note, I think there are still a fair few poeple on here who don't have a DVD player).