knightmare.com • Later series being easier - what is the cause?
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Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:59 pm
by JoeGrocottJames
People have noticed that in later series, the teams seem to be tested less than in the earlier series. To quote Martin Odoni from http://havetstorm.tripod.com/knightmare/, quests 'seemed to become a 50 minute non-event.' What is the cause of this? (Phil Colvin mentioned that stupid teams would 'blunder into level 2' before dying). I know Series 5, Team 1's level 1 was easy, but (in this series), it seems to be the odd one out. But there are less quests in each of the later series.

Can anybody put their finger on any single thing which actually caused this to happen?

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:19 pm
by Cull
Big reason for longer quests/fewer dungeoneers? Eye shield sequences taking up half the bloody quests. End of argument. ;D


Seriously though, there does seem to be an element of easiness/"dumbing down" in some later quests, where teams who would have died on (or barely escaped) Level 1 would make it to Level 2 or even 3. In some cases there do seem to be let-offs which you probably wouldn't have seen in Seasons 1-3 (any examples from there that anyone can think of to prove me wrong? :) ), and the riddle solving element does feel either altered or reduced - less so much of the "answer me these questions three", and more of the "guess what this scroll's cryptic message is" style.

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm
by WhiteDevil
If we compare Series 3, and i suppose to an extent Series 2 (which i havent seen so i shall presume) to Series 4 and Series 5 -

- EYE SHIELD :: This takes some of the fun and Challenge out of the quest. Teams fondling wildly for the door with over-sized movements showed teams how good/bad their co-ordination was. If you take a look at Series 4/5 as soon as the dungeoneer comes with a few paces of the door they are immediately going through it, adding time to the quest and removing some of the challenge.

- SPYGLASS :: Although a marvellous idea, the scenes are often too long and half the dialogue irrelevant to the quest. These must occupy 3/4 minutes of questing time, whereas the Oracle was the only thing (i can think of) to make a team stop in the earlier series.

- CoB & B+T :: Probably the most devious and difficult rooms in Knightmare. The B+T erased so many teams it only featured in one Series, they dumbed it down because teams couldnt do it without making a complete pigs a** of it..

- Causeways :: The successor to the B+T in a way, a very difficult puzzle... These extended the quests because teams were very unco-ordinated.

- General Puzzles were dumbed down :: The latter puzzles were just not as challenging. Maybe people thought we had better give the team an easy ride..

Generally the latter series were more interaction with people (compared to , therefore making the overall experience a lot easier..

I hope i havent over-ranted or repeated myself..

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:18 pm
by Skarkill
I parcaily agree with the last statment.

I am starting to NOT despise but become frustrated with the over use of The Eye Sheild.

I think the only time a team was given a real free ride was in Dunstons quest in Series 8.

(That Ruddy Short Cut)

But even this I can (sort of) understand as I think the producers must of had a suspision that this would be the final sereis so it should go out with a win.

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:05 pm
by Fidjit
It beats me why no-one in Series One and Three...

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:48 pm
by Purgatory
they may be easyer, and people where let off but the score board doesn't lie.   Just take season 5 for an example.  someone already posted its results in another topic.   We only had one winner and only two making level 3.   and compare that to season 3, we had no winner but a few level 3 makers.  

Its the teams that got stupied as the years went on not the quests, puzzles or questions.. lol

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:20 am
by Lowebo
To be honest, i dont necessarily think things were easier - there were more puzzles etc in 6> (i have changed my mind - s6 is my favourite!) and also more character interaction - this i think made quests more long winded, but similarly dwarf tunnels and rooms where nothing happened extended teams in 1-3 - example, on ledge in level 1/2 in s3, just before edge of cliff with olaf, (think s3) there was a room where quests would look around for a few minutes and then realise there was nothing. Also, the riddle/question rooms got tiresome and too many quests depended on them - id choose puzzles over riddles any day - the idea with brollachan/snapper jack was right, but because they didnt give information for certain correct answers they were meaningless. Admittedly s1 and s3 had no winners, although, in s3 at least, that was due to lack of horn. 1 winner in s 4,5,8 (and 2) with 2 in s6 & s7 (one of which in each was to save dungeon, the s6 quest being a slight letdown - indeed, place barry in s6 with winner ben and you have ultimate partnership!
 Dungeoneers did tend to wise up as series' moved on, but also were very dim at certain times!! Moreover, though the eye shield slowed things down in s5 (and lesser in 4,6,7,8) teams were unbearably slow in s1-3 (and admittedly 5) - i genuinely did not enjoy s 3 on challenge aside from mrs g and mine carts, and that saddens me because it is the first series i remember. Sorry if ive also repeated myself!

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:58 pm
by mattymoo_goblin
hi everyone
I think that the only 2 series that had a real let down in level 1 was s4 and 5 b'cuz they did just spend half the time on eyeshield bits that went very slow. And there wasn't really any puzzles.

S6 and 7 had better puzzles and that causeway timer needs very good direction and communication and then S7 had the Spikes, play your cards right and moving block with the fireball version of the room too.

I think the reason of the quests being longer was maybe b'cuz they wanted teams to get into the game and establish themselves rather than die 10mins in on S3 which dosen't really give them much gameplay. For that reason S3 must of wasted more time having to start new quests all the time followed by that dice room which was very boring to hear described time and time again.
If Barry's team had been on S3 and got 1 question wrong in the clue room and they died in Level 1 as a result you wouldnt of properly seen how they developed over the length of time they had in S7.  :)

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:33 pm
by Crispeater

If Barry's team had been on S3 and got 1 question wrong in the clue room and they died in Level 1 as a result you wouldnt of properly seen how they developed over the length of time they had in S7.  :)
Moreover, if Barry had been in S3 and attempted to go back and get the piece of staff he very nearly forgot, then he would have been royally clobbered by the goblins, probably without getting the chance to ask them if they wanted a present ;)

Chris

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:00 am
by JamesA
Is that Chris "Crispeater" Willis by any chance?

However, back to the point, I think there must have been a more lenient production team as the series progressed, since there are no Level 1 deaths in Series 6 and 7 and the Level 1 death in Series 8 was only because the team still insisted on taking the wrong clue item despite much persuasion from Treguard to change their mind

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:04 am
by Lord_Bob
S5-8 were probably easier and you say the teams got worse which is certainly true for S5 but what about S6 and 7 (Barry, Julie etc). Its obvious that S3 was perhaps the hardest, teams making mistakes were often punished with instant death or a death in the next room. In S5 teams making mistake could get to the end of the level or more before running into trouble. Also earlier series had more and often harder riddles and could involve more as there were no tedious Eye Shield sequences.  B+T and CoB both used in S4 were really good features. Also in earlier series then there was a real sense of urgency with the movement, every room or two then life force appeared, goblins would give chase frequently, floors, ledges and bridges would crumble which lead to some exhilerating goblin chases.
       Whereas in S5 the Sarah and co were allowd to have a 5minute debate on which item to take in the clue room. Also causeways may have claimed many dungeoneers yet most were due to mistakes on the wrong combination. Once they had the causeway combination and the blocker password there wasnt much else to stop them getting through. Also the later series based more on character interaction than earlier which meant several things were worked out automatically and involved little contribution from advisors. Especially when the team who died on the causeway due to being "too slow" were let off on getting all 3 questions wrong. On S3 that would never happen.
     A lot of poor teams in later series got to level 2 and even level 3, whereas in S3 they would most likely die early in Level 1. That is my opinion anyway, take it or leave it.  The other clues on the table are "A loaf of bread, a green gem, and a candle" ;D

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:02 am
by PunmiesterWhiteley
In Series 8 L1 every team had Fireball Alley to contend with. Cross that and you had virtually completed the level because there wasn't any other dangers.  Assuming you took the correct objects of course!

Mr Wills posting on another forum now... (waits for stories of Countdown).

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:34 am
by Crispeater
Is it not amazing how one's fame precedes one (as Hordriss might say ;).  Sorry to disappoint any fans, but Countdown stories will be limited to my website.  

As for later series being easier, it's certainly true that some teams were allowed to get away with murder, while in earlier series, the line between success and failure was a very fine one - viz S3, where three teams perish not due to lack of information or the right spell or object, but through a moment of poor guidance.  

As has been said earlier, it may be the case that the production team wanted teams to be able to establish themselves, rather than having to throw the reset switch nearly every episode.  

An interesting experiment would have been if Leo and Martin's teams had been invited back to take part in S6 or S7 and to see if they would have won and then perhaps gone retro with a couple of winning teams from later series made to cope with the rigours of S3.  The results would doubtless have been fascinating...

Chris

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:06 pm
by Lord_Bob
Well that certainly would give us some answers, cant say as it will ever happen now though.

Re: Later series being easier - what is the cause?

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:23 pm
by PunmiesterWhiteley
Is it not amazing how one's fame precedes one (as Hordriss might say ;).  Sorry to disappoint any fans, but Countdown stories will be limited to my website.  
Hooray!

And S5 is littered with dungeoneers getting away with things that should have resulted in death.  

Carrying Poison instead of Gwen's arrow despite some heavy hints being dropped for example.  Previously Gwendoline would have refused to aid them.

And the "I wanted 2/3 but as you have my arrow and were trying hard you can have the pasword anyway" was appalling.