The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Adzee » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:42 pm

Dan please shut up!!! Here is a question for you.

Have you ever used KaZaa or Napster??

I think downloading eps off the internet is a good thing, that means it will reach wider audiences across the world.

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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by GrimaldineGrimwold » Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:33 pm

Firstly, please let's all be polite.

I'm glad Malefact used the same logic I've been using on another thread. It is a chicken and egg situation. And let's remember one of the issues isn't so much whether those people who download/buy illegally copied tapes would buy a DVD, but whether Granada believe they would. And one can definitely see why they might be sceptical.

I can see both sides to this. My own suggestion would be the following. Please be kind enough to read the whole thing before getting infuriated. And please also read between the lines.

1. Stop the uploads. It's important that we can confidently say to GM that illegal trading/uploading of all kinds has ceased. If such services are not advertised publicly on this forum, we can confidently say that. If people ask where they can get full episodes or anything else and you have something on your website that might satiate their KM hunger, tell them. But none of us have KM AVIs up, right?

2. We do the petition. If we do it with PetitionPetition, we can include a fixed period to collect signatures. After those months, we send it to Granada. We tell them we've collected all these signatures in just a few months. We make the most cogent arguments we can. We investigate possibilities and address potential problems. We tell them that all illegal trading and such is, as far as we can sensibly ascertain, stopped.

3. Then we see what they say. If they're enthusiastic in any real degree, we can pursue it from there. If they were flatly unenthusiastic or uncooperative, I could quite understand why some people might want to take recourse to uploaded episode copies. There's nothing to stop anyone taping the episodes off Challenge?. I, of course, would still frown upon the illegality of all this uploading/downloading, but I would understand it, and given that we'd tried so hard to get an official release, wouldn't wag fingers like I do now.  

Just my suggestion, remember. I'm not any authority. I'm not pushing anyone to do anything with which they're uncomfortable.
   
Last edited by GrimaldineGrimwold on Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Adzee » Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:01 pm

The main reason that there are episodes being uploaded on to the internet is for those poor and unfortunate people who do not have access to Challenge.

I myself have access to challenge, and could understand what it must be for people who can't watch the episodes.

Leggyman1210 is doing a great job, we must appreciate that.  He is not doing it for himself!!! I hope he continues to upload the rest of this series and series 5 if it is ever broadcast.

This whole issue of uploading/downloading is not out of control. If sites flung up all over the internet with Knightmare downloads then people whould need to start debating the future of Knightmare on DVD.

LEGGYMAN KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by KaM » Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:55 pm

Hey up everyone. I know this is long.. so it'll hold two or three posts maybe.

Since I started all this mayhem of ranting and raving, I thought I'd sit back and see how general reaction went.

A lot of things to respond to:

Dan: mate.. a fair few pointers.
This topic has been somewhat covered and recovered in other threads already, so we perhaps ought to be using those threads rather than creating new ones.
Maybe - but there's only one way to headline a specific thought area, and that's creating a new topic. Adding to other threads doesn't always guarantee that if you've spent good time and effort writing something carefully, that it'll be read and viewed with the same interest as a new topic dedicated to it. Besides, the number of reads and replies so far has indicated to me that the choice was worth it.

You also wonder why I consider the positives of AVis and then suggest a compromise of posting only a few? The simple answer, sir, is that: 1. illegal; 2. one doesn't have to see a whole series of 16 to grow to love Knightmare.. Kieran's brilliant thoughts - just show Simon's quest - then everyone would be hooked on team stupidity  ;D . I only suggested limitations in the progession of my argument thinking purely of G.M's perspective - they're the ones we've got to please first, not the fans and general public.

Secondly:
It _shows_ the demand for such a release, it doesn't _diminish_ it
Maybe so, sir.. but that is not an argument we're going to run to GM with, is it!? 'By the way, guys, to show the extent of demand, we posted a series' worth of illegal AVIs...and the huge download numbers might suggest that there are a lot of fans who might like to watch KM should it be released in saleable format.'

I'd still maintain that not everybody will be up for buying - and the AVIs will satisfy a lot of KM needs. It's all about consumer surpluses (any economists, out there). [Will get onto pricing and format ideas later].

Thirdly:
I don't think GM would be any more bothered that I had series 4 in avi form on my computer than if I had videotaped it.
Keeping _anything_ on video for longer than a certain period of time (2 or 3 weeks, I think?  not sure) is technically a criminal offense.  Is there a difference?
Pointer one, sir: Firstly, GM might not be worried about individuals having the files - they may be worried, however, about the ever-more-significant group that have them. And let's remember, sir - you are not the one with head in the noose and taking the risk of posting them - that will likely be the reason why you're not so bothered about it. I could be wrong, but it appears that way quite clearly to me.

Pointer two: Pickle had, in my view, the valid point: A VHS tape is becoming accepted practice, because there are far more limiations to its broadcasting - friends, family, even a school could watch it - but the internet brands something available around the world at any time: the difference could not be larger in my eyes. And let's not blame Pickle for having the commitment to argue well into the night before A-Level exams. In fact, I'd say that when the emotions are running high, one might get across the best points. Nevertheless, thanks for putting across the viewer's view.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by KaM » Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:56 pm

Pickle: Good show, sir. I will keep a very close eye on the BBK scene, and would love to be part of it. Thanks for your interest in what's been said here

I have to follow the great wisdom of Malefact and G.G. - you guys have held the wisdom forward I'd hoped to hear... it's about convincing GM we are in the best position ever to begin releasing KM. By stopping the AVI posts (Dan, and others), we are beginning to enter that frame of belief that something will be released (you guys admit that you like the AVis because nothing is definite - give it every chance to happen - allow NO room for ambiguity.. because GM will forever hunt it, it seems!) We only add extra responsibility and pressure on GM in a positive way if we show ourselves prepared to make 'the sacrifice' of illegal posting and other illegal goings-on.

Leggy: you are the forgetten man, here. Let me thank you for a smashing repsonse. If you let me know you've read this, and I might edit it out - you are doing all fans an immense and tremendous favour, and we think loads of you for it - and none of this is against you - just the argument of how to concoct a release. You have a sensible suggestion about running to the end and then getting rid. Please bear in mind, though.. every day and every new post has its added risks to you. I hope I speak for all of us, in that we'd rather not see any of it than have you get into any trouble - and after recent problems on e-Bay and the such, one can't be too careful.

As for the pricing and everything I proposed.. well - £15 was going to be a minimum always - the average new film release costs well more. I'd hope it didn't price a lot of people out of the market.. those who weren't die-hard fans.. but would like to reminisce their memories of the show, and would be prepared to at reasonable pricing. Yes - I didn't originally mean to portray the thought that I'd expect them all released together.. oh no.
I could envision GM releasing them on a 3 month basis or even longer - to scrutinise the sales figures. Yes, it would be easier on the pocket that way.. and I'd like them released 2/3 at a time if possible. Firstly, because that would only mean 3/4 batches of release, rather than 8 - meaning any alarmingly low sales figures would affect less future series releases at a time. I liked the ideas of series 1 and 8 holding the majority of extras.. and this would be most fitting: the first series covering I'd imagine the thoughts behind the game and the creation, 8 covering end of KM interviews.. maybe even fan interviews (!!) - and reviews on future projects) - a lot to go on. It also means that S1 would likely get a flying start, and S8, regarded as many fans as relatively disappointing, would attract sales by it's extras.


It's hypothetical.. but what I'd hate to happen, was to see S3 or S4 sales be low. While we could blame the probability of Challenge? tv broadcasts on S3 definitely, we can't have the finger pointed at the fans if S4 didn't take off, for whatever reason. As I said before, let not ambiguity tarnish all our years of good work.

I'd like to work on G.G.'s last comment too. We have not yet, I believe, seen G.M's true intentions where KM is concerned. Mr Child himself stated that they were actually interested in a release. It appears that they are very hesitant and sceptical to us, and that's why illegalities go on. Believe it or not, I do understand. However, I think now that the VHS situation has been knocked on the head - G.M. will begin to take us seriously - I'd like to see it as a whole new ball game and whole new sets of 'negotiations' really. You can't blame any company for thinking about profits and good business sense - and let's face it guys, if we want this to happen as much as we say we do, we should be bending over backwards to help out - and that means reallyknuckling down and keeping a tight, firm lid on the piracy front. That, I think, and the biggest ever BBK petitions we will release, will be the biggest indication to G.M. to date that we are serious. I'm not going to comment on the 'none wagging fingers if G.M. don't show willing' idea - because I think we all should have some damn belief it's going to happen and be released. If we don't have the belief.. all of us, how can G.M. ever have belief in us to keep our side of the bargain and pay the bucks to see te best show ever made??

I leave all these thoughts with you guys. Again, thanks for your dedicated reading time. Regards, KaM
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Leggy1210 » Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:50 pm

Leggy: you are the forgetten man, here. Let me thank you for a smashing repsonse. If you let me know you've read this, and I might edit it out - you are doing all fans an immense and tremendous favour, and we think loads of you for it - and none of this is against you - just the argument of how to concoct a release. You have a sensible suggestion about running to the end and then getting rid. Please bear in mind, though.. every day and every new post has its added risks to you. I hope I speak for all of us, in that we'd rather not see any of it than have you get into any trouble - and after recent problems on e-Bay and the such, one can't be too careful.
To be honest, I didn't think such a mass array of discussion would of came from providing "second chance" viewings of episodes! I nearly did reach the point of pulling the plug on the whole operation - not because of the effort involved, but the danger of it cause any negative consequences.

I don't know anything what happened with EBay and the tape trading goings-on, but I guess it injected a bit of fear in to the jepordising of official releases!

Series 4 only runs for about another week and the episodes will continue to be posted, and as confirmed, they will be removed a few days after, and no future episodes from other series will be posted.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Adzee » Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:19 pm

Hey Leggy can u put episode 10 back on please :-)

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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Illusion » Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:41 pm

Just a kind request - it's clear that everyone has differing views on the matter, and there is nothing wrong with healthy debate but please try to avoid being impolite to other members if you don't agree with their viewpoint. The last thing we want is for this to develop into a huge flame war.  :P
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Dan » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:08 pm

RedMage: I'm not a knight of the realm.  You don't have to call me sir.  ;-)
you are not the one with head in the noose and taking the risk of posting them - that will likely be the reason why you're not so bothered about it.
Actually, if you'd read some of the other threads, you'd know that I've been mirroring leggy's files.  I shall be doing this until S4 comes to an end and leggy takes down his files, at which point I shall take down my mirror too.  The very next sentence in the post of mine that you quoted went on to talk about the difference between possession and supply.  Nice bit of convenient editing on your part. ;-)
Pointer two: Pickle had, in my view, the valid point: A VHS tape is becoming accepted practice, because there are far more limiations to its broadcasting - friends, family, even a school could watch it
Ngggh!   NGGGGGH!!!  I know this, but this does not make my point about it _still_ being illegal any less valid ;-)  The standard copyright boilerplate prohibits lending, hiring or public performance.  The size of the audience is irrelevant (although, I agree, likely to be overlooked until it gets to a sufficiently high number).
but the internet brands something available around the world at any time: the difference could not be larger in my eyes.
The difference could be no bigger in your eyes?  Leggy could've encoded and uploaded all the series that he had on video.  He could've burnt them to CD and sold them for vast sums of money.  He didn't.  Putting a single series online as it's broadcast and removing the episodes a few days later is _significantly_ less damaging than that.

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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Dan » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:12 pm

Dan please shut up!!! Here is a question for you.

Have you ever used KaZaa or Napster??

I think downloading eps off the internet is a good thing, that means it will reach wider audiences across the world.
Um.  I don't normally bother replying to what appear to be trolls, but I can't see why I'm being told to shut up... have you read my posts and my opinion on the subject? :-)

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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Dan » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:25 pm

1. Stop the uploads. [...] none of us have KM AVIs up, right?
Agreed.  There's no real need for URLs to be posted each time an episode isn't uploaded somewhere - those people who want to see the episodes know where they shouldn't look.

Just call me Merlin.
2. We do the petition. [..] We tell them we've collected all these signatures in just a few months. [..] We tell them that all illegal trading and such is, as far as we can sensibly ascertain, stopped.
Agreed - although the way you phrase it makes it sound like we (that's a "the knightmare.com community" we) are solely responsible for all illegal trading, which we're not and weren't.  I don't think there's a one of us that'd say selling pirated tapes on ebay was a classy thing to do.  And I shall be signing the petition, certainly.
3. [..] If they're enthusiastic in any real degree, we can pursue it from there. If they were flatly unenthusiastic or uncooperative, I could quite understand why some people might want to take recourse to uploaded episode copies.
I would love for them to be enthusiastic.  I have a horrible sense of foreboding that it simply won't be that easy, however.  I don't want to be a doomsayer, but I think some people (yourself not included, GG) are woefully naive about the likelihood of success.
I, of course, would still frown upon the illegality of all this uploading/downloading, but I would understand it, and given that we'd tried so hard to get an official release, wouldn't wag fingers like I do now.
I agree (again).  I'm not suffering from any delusions that some of the things that have been discussed here recently have been perfectly illegal.  What is irking me slightly is the degrees-of-illegality thing.  The same people that want to see it as a black and white issue ("that's wrong, it WILL harm a DVD release") are also the ones blurring it into shades of grey ("videos are acceptable, the internet is BAD").  And I'm getting shouted at both for saying "hang on, why is one any worse than the other" AND for some reason I'm not entirely sure of yet. ;-)

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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Trial_by_Spikes » Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:42 am

Don't wish to fan the flames of debate here but I must say, I've downloaded every episode thus far as I know nobody with Challenge (especially not here at Uni) and this has been my first chance to watch one of my favourite progs again. I can't thank Mr L enough.

Steady on.
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Leggy1210 » Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:04 am

The difference could be no bigger in your eyes?  Leggy could've encoded and uploaded all the series that he had on video.  He could've burnt them to CD and sold them for vast sums of money.  He didn't.  Putting a single series online as it's broadcast and removing the episodes a few days later is _significantly_ less damaging than that.

Indeed I could of, but this wasn't going to be the point!
Knightmare lives on and continues to live on!

I had no intent to make money from these temporary uploads. I was merely fuelling the ever growing Knightmare fan base! The episodes themselves have a lifetime of a few days, again - only to satisfy the ones who missed the episode.

Those who provide mirrors - please only allow the latest eps for download!

This whole thread I feel belongs in the Knightmare on DVD thread instead... but it is certain that this subject has become one hot topic.

I am in a bit of a dilemma....
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Re: The Slight Pessimist - stop AVIs

Post by Pickle123 » Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:23 am

a couple of things...first of all I'd like to thank redmage, gg for clarifying some of my points.

secondly i'd like to offer a much more calm apolergy to dan as i do respect his opinion and value his opinion of me. if i hadn't been in the mood i said i was i would have thought for two seconds and just deleted what i said ;)

about waiting till i as calm...i can't claim i usually would as i've proved that i don't before but i will say i had somethings i wanted to say and it was my inability to get them across fully to dan that was annoying me most.

about the AVI's vs VHS. their illegality wasn't in question and i didn't mean people could prove what was on your hard-drive. what i meant was if we had a guy looking for evidence of illegal episode trading he couldn't point from afar to your VHS' as he has no proof, but pointing to some webspace were anyone can download them is pretty easy by comparison. this is why, especially for an internet based community i feel it poses a stronger threat than VHS piracy, illegality regardless, to the cause

erm..."woefully naive about the chances of success". What i'll say is that no matter what the chances are...uploading eps will only ever have one of two reactions with G.M

1) dan's suggestion of "ow look, free advertising...goodie"

2) redmage's suggestion of "passable material deminishes our sales...screw them"

as, you said with our chances so small the second is by far the more likely so surely we shouldn't give them that foothold?


leggy -  ;D as ever
http://www.petitionpetition.com/cgi/pet ... gi?id=5838

Click it, sign it, tell ya mates...please

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